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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 17:47:39 GMT -5
Because, for the reasons above, I don't think they're equally scummy, even on that limited ground, though I concur that Bill is also skeazy in that regard. It is a matter of degree. That is my opinion. You are welcome to yours.
I will note this -- even if Melania is willing to wink at Trump having affairs, I'm going to doubt that she would be OK with his boinking a porn star (or anyone) without protection. If she is, she is a fool, unless they've stopped sleeping together. Even so, she's a fool, since if a woman got pregnant by him, it could get expensive.
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Post by michaelw on Feb 15, 2018 18:39:01 GMT -5
I've always believed the Juanita Broaddrick allegation has some degree of credibility behind it. Of all the pieces written about it, I think this one is the most balanced: www.vox.com/2016/1/6/10722580/bill-clinton-juanita-broaddrickMatthews notes something here that I think is painfully yet obviously true: that many of the aspects of Broaddrick's allegation that supposedly made it non-credible are the same things progressives have more recently said *don't* make a rape allegation non-credible (for example, the fact that Broaddrick was reluctant to come forward and that she had continued contact with Clinton afterwards.) Heck, one could argue that Broaddrick's reluctance to talk about what happened makes her story more credible, if anything. But in any case, it's certainly interesting to re-read some of the 90-s era apologetics from people like Sid Blumenthal in light of the #MeToo Movement.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 18:46:00 GMT -5
You're gonna make me dig up the thing I wrote before.
I did not rely on articles in coming to my conclusion on Juanita. That was a pretty serious allegation and I dug deeper because I wanted to come to as informed an opinion as I could. I went back to original transcripts and interviews of Juanita, her alleged witnesses and other people she knew at the time (her now ex husband), etc. and read them in their entirety. I don't find her credible, for whatever that's worth. Let's put it this way -- I'm quite confident she's lying about a number of things connected with the alleged rape story. That doesn't necessarily mean she's lying about being raped, of course, but it doesn't do much for her credibility with me.
Since it took me hours, I'm not reconstructing it again, at least not now (alas, I am working), but if I get a chance this weekend, I'll try to see if I can find the posts in which I discussed it on another website (there were several).
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Post by michaelw on Feb 15, 2018 19:02:56 GMT -5
Let's put it this way -- I'm quite confident she's lying about a number of things connected with the alleged rape story. That doesn't necessarily mean she's lying about being raped, of course, but it doesn't do much for her credibility with me. That's exactly what a reasonable person would say about Bill, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 19:17:45 GMT -5
No. I mean her story utterly did not hang together. It isn't just that she didn't speak out about it at the time (including, btw, to her husband at the time, who also did not remember her either being upset or having the split lip and bruises she claimed to have). It's also that she acted completely inconsistently with the way a rape victim might act, participating in events supporting the Clintons in the days following the alleged rape. There was quite a bit, actually.
Frankly, I think Bill got a worse rap than he deserved. Even Ken Starr thinks so, at this point. He's not going to win faithful husband of the year award, but as political liars go, I don't think he's anywhere in a ballpark with a ton of people who don't get half as much shit about it.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 15, 2018 19:47:24 GMT -5
Bill got away with so much shit, it's scary, because a) he was/is likable, b) was a very effective leader, and (most importantly, imo) c) he helped build a serious political machine that ground up people who threatened him and a few others.
I've noted before--I think--that I was around the DLC crowd when I was much younger. They played for keeps.
And specific to Bill, I think I may have also noted some stuff I know regarding him and his time spent with Greg Norman at Norman's place in Hobe Sound. And that would involve some "professional" women. Not exactly smart. So if Melania is a fool, Hillary is every bit as much of one, imo. More of one, really, because she's put up with it for far longer.
Bill was about as far as one could get from being a "champion of women" (to borrow from Franken).
But, he had a), b), and c). Trump doesn't have any of those, so it's a lot easier to forgive Bill, I think.
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Post by michaelw on Feb 15, 2018 20:31:04 GMT -5
It's also that she acted completely inconsistently with the way a rape victim might act, participating in events supporting the Clintons in the days following the alleged rape. The way a rape victim "might" act. LOL. That's some pretty weak sauce, IMO. And really, this is exactly the kind of thing Matthews noted in the piece I linked. Plenty of people defended Emma Sulkowitz (and quite rightly, IMO) when it turned out she had sent friendly messages to her rapist. Because far too many people still have this incredibly narrow view of how a rape victim is supposed to act after they've been raped.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 20:46:48 GMT -5
It's also that she acted completely inconsistently with the way a rape victim might act, participating in events supporting the Clintons in the days following the alleged rape. The way a rape victim "might" act. LOL. That's some pretty weak sauce, IMO. And really, this is exactly the kind of thing Matthews noted in the piece I linked. Plenty of people defended Emma Sulkowitz (and quite rightly, IMO) when it turned out she had sent friendly messages to her rapist. Because far too many people have this incredibly narrow view of how a rape victim is supposed to act after they've been raped. I'm quite certain I've looked into it at greater length than you have, so I'm not too shaken by your "weak sauce". Among other things, three weeks after the alleged rape, she participated in a small neighborhood fundraiser for Bill Clinton, and was photographed smiling with him. I dunno, that seems odd to me, just like it seems odd to me she never told her husband and that he never noticed her split lip and swollen face. I also have to admit I'm not convinced by Emma Sulkowitz -- and yeppers, I DO find it odd she sent the messages she did to the guy after the alleged rape. Despise me if you must.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 15, 2018 20:47:05 GMT -5
I think that's because many of the people judging rape victims assume things based on how they suppose they, themselves, would act. It's a tough thing to break out of, and not just with regard to judging rape victims (or supposed victims). I know I do it too, sometimes, especially with things like infidelity.
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Post by michaelw on Feb 15, 2018 20:57:50 GMT -5
I'm quite certain I've looked into it at greater length than you have, so I'm not too shaken by your "weak sauce". Among other things, three weeks after the alleged rape, she participated in a small neighborhood fundraiser for Bill Clinton, and was photographed smiling with him. I dunno, that seems odd to me, just like it seems odd to me she never told her husband and that he never noticed her split lip and swollen face. I also have to admit I'm not convinced by Emma Sulkowitz -- and yeppers, I DO find it odd she sent the messages she did to the guy after the alleged rape. Despise me if you must. I'm not disputing that it seems odd to you. But I think Rob had it exactly right, below: But not only that, I think people by and large don't actually know how they would act if they were in the same position, even though they believe they do know. Luckily, this particular form of discrediting rape allegations seems to be waning, although I doubt it'll ever go away completely.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 21:00:51 GMT -5
Also, to be clear, I don't think anyone is a fool because their spouse cheated on them. Neither Hillary nor Melania. I don't even think you're a fool if you decide it doesn't matter to you and you choose to turn a blind eye. I might not do it, but I can understand why people do.
My "fool" comment was hypothetical -- IF she gave her husband permission to cheat on her with someone (esp. a person who'd had many partners) without protection, she'd be a fool. I assume Melania did NOT give such permission, and neither did Hillary.
You can find Juanita credible -- that is your prerogative. I frankly don't. I've also watched her give interviews about it. Yeah, I just don't believe her.
I really have no time at the moment to reconstruct all my cites from transcripts and events, but I'm betting I put at least as much time and quite possibly more (since I'm an anal retentive lawyer) into looking at it as the journalist who wrote the Vox article. I took a look on the other website but couldn't find my posts (I'm wondering if they were purged along with all the pre-election posts). Maybe at some point I'll reconstruct them, but it won't be tonight. (It would take hours, and I don't have them, nor am I convinced it's worth the effort, tbh.)
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Post by michaelw on Feb 15, 2018 21:12:46 GMT -5
Also, to be clear, I don't think anyone is a fool because their spouse cheated on them. Neither Hillary nor Melania. I don't even think you're a fool if you decide it doesn't matter to you and you choose to turn a blind eye. I might not do it, but I can understand why people do. My "fool" comment was hypothetical -- IF she gave her husband permission to cheat on her with someone (esp. a person who'd had many partners) without protection, she'd be a fool. I assume Melania did NOT give such permission, and neither did Hillary. You can find Juanita credible -- that is your prerogative. I frankly don't. I've also watched her give interviews about it. Yeah, I just don't believe her. I really have no time at the moment to reconstruct all my cites from transcripts and events, but I'm betting I put at least as much time and quite possibly more (since I'm an anal retentive lawyer) into looking at it as the journalist who wrote the Vox article. I took a look on the other website but couldn't find them (I'm wondering if they were purged along with all the pre-election posts). Maybe at some point I'll reconstruct them, but it won't be tonight. I get it, you feel you've done a lot of homework on this and know more about it than everyone else (although you didn't know how to spell Broaddrick's name earlier). That may or may not be the case, but I don't think it matters when you start throwing out stuff about how she didn't act properly after the alleged rape. People can judge for themselves whether that's a valid argument, IMO. (And obviously, I think it's quite weak, given that friendly contact with one's rapist is fairly common.)
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Post by Deleted on Feb 15, 2018 21:25:46 GMT -5
I also misspell Evan McMullen's name every other time I type it, and I'm an active fan who follows him on Twitter. (I can never remember whether it's an "i" or an "e" in his last name. I might have it wrong here.)
I get the impression that both of you will default to believing the worst of Clinton regardless of what I cite, and it really would take me quite a while to pull it all together again. Given how little free time I have at the moment...
Believe what you want to believe of Clinton, Juanita, etc. For that matter, think what you like of me.
I really don't give a damn.
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Post by michaelw on Feb 15, 2018 21:36:19 GMT -5
I get the impression that both of you will default to believing the worst of Clinton regardless of what I cite Yep. It was all that Vince Foster and Pizza-gate stuff I posted, wasn't it? In any case, I thought the piece I linked to was genuinely trying to be an even-handed treatment of the issue. Hardly some kind of hit job, IMO. Well, I never said I thought badly of you. Maybe this is one of those issues where things get taken personally very easily when they're not meant that way.
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Post by Amadan on Feb 16, 2018 7:19:00 GMT -5
I think if Cass said she researched it thoroughly and would provide her notes later, you could at least give her the benefit of the doubt and wait until she presents her case. I remember reading a lot of stuff about Broaddrick at the time and not finding her convincing (I am more convinced by the lack of physical evidence of the abuse she claimed than by how she acted afterwards).
That said, I agree that a rape victim smiling, socializing, and being "friendly" with her rapist does seem to be a thing that happens. A lot of women have come forward lately talking about how they continued socializing with the person who assaulted them - maybe for professional reasons, maybe because they still liked the guy and were compartmentalizing, maybe for more complicated reasons.
I understand the skepticism, and I also tend to be skeptical of rape stories where you find the alleged victim was texting chattily or even flirting with her alleged assailant afterwards. (I really dislike reconstructing a consensual encounter as "rape" afterwards because she had regrets/realized she really wasn't into it/felt like he used his Man-Wiles on her, etc.) But, I no longer assume that "Oh, she was seen smiling in a photograph with him a week later, therefore she's lying about being raped" is necessarily fair.
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