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Post by celawson on Aug 1, 2018 11:06:03 GMT -5
Welcome to commenting in the political threads at TCG, Gail! So glad to have you here! You will see that sometimes people are nice, and sometimes they will rip you a new one, and sometimes it's somewhere in between or a combination of the two at once. But it's nice to have a different voice, so thanks for being here. Back to the topic at hand: Yes this policy was abhorrent, but the thing is, we (America) are in the process of fixing it. And sometimes that's the most we can ask of our society -- that it continues to strive for its ideals, and that it tries to fix things when they go off track or when humans become more "woke". And that is what is happening here. Unlike some on this board like Cassandra, I don't think things were being deliberately carried out in the most callous and punitive way. I think the policy end goal (decreasing illegal immigration) drove a policy decision that had horrible ramifications that most people did not anticipate or plan. And I think the ones who planned it/made the zero-tolerance decision had no true idea of the extent of what was actually happening, in detail, to these kids. They were too far removed. Yes, they knew kids would be separated. And yes, they knew that would be awful. But they didn't have to look into a child's face and hear the sobs during actual separations. And I think they stayed willfully ignorant of the horror until it was thrust so hard in their faces (perhaps in one case by Melania to Donald), they could stay ignorant no longer. And I think a combination of underfunding and understaffing and underplanning contributed to the tragedy. (as did the insular nature of the process and the fact that folks seeking asylum aren't squeaky wheels) I'm sticking with the opinion that there is a small minority of bad people involved here. And don't forget, some kids were separated because there were concerns of abuse, danger, or they came here with someone who wasn't actually a parent. But once the details started to emerge of the true ramifications and harm on innocent kids, people from both sides of the political aisle were rightly outraged, and voiced their outrage, and acted on their outrage, and this has resulted in policy changes and attempts at rectifying the situation. That is certainly better than nothing, and it's certainly better than some societies which don't recognize harm or don't try to change harmful policies.
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Post by Amadan on Aug 1, 2018 12:20:46 GMT -5
Unlike some on this board like Cassandra, I don't think things were being deliberately carried out in the most callous and punitive way. I think the policy end goal (decreasing illegal immigration) drove a policy decision that had horrible ramifications that most people did not anticipate or plan. And I think the ones who planned it/made the zero-tolerance decision had no true idea of the extent of what was actually happening, in detail, to these kids. They were too far removed. Yes, they knew kids would be separated. And yes, they knew that would be awful. But they didn't have to look into a child's face and hear the sobs during actual separations. And I think they stayed willfully ignorant of the horror until it was thrust so hard in their faces (perhaps in one case by Melania to Donald), they could stay ignorant no longer. And I think a combination of underfunding and understaffing and underplanning contributed to the tragedy. (as did the insular nature of the process and the fact that folks seeking asylum aren't squeaky wheels) I'm sticking with the opinion that there is a small minority of bad people involved here. And don't forget, some kids were separated because there were concerns of abuse, danger, or they came here with someone who wasn't actually a parent. But once the details started to emerge of the true ramifications and harm on innocent kids, people from both sides of the political aisle were rightly outraged, and voiced their outrage, and acted on their outrage, and this has resulted in policy changes and attempts at rectifying the situation. That is certainly better than nothing, and it's certainly better than some societies which don't recognize harm or don't try to change harmful policies. We don't know what actual words were exchanged between Trump and his advisors as they decided to implement the new "zero tolerance" policy, but from what many other government officials have said, there is at least a strong implication that deterrence was indeed part of the intent, and it's very clear that if the ones who planned it "had no true idea of the extent of what was actually happening," then they didn't bother to do even the most cursory fact-gathering before instituting the policy. Like, "Implement zero tolerance, arrest everyone" - okay, what did they think would happen to the children? Did that question never even get asked? And you know what? If crying children is what changed the minds of the people who did this, then they're not only inept, but weaklings and fools. If you're going to deliberately separate families in the hopes of deterring other families from trying the same thing, then you do so knowing that you're gonna have a lot of miserable families and crying children. If you can't face the consequences once those crying kids start appearing in the news, then you shouldn't have embarked on that policy to begin with. It's kind of like deciding to declare war and then having second thoughts once the bodies start coming home. Either you were so stupid you didn't actually foresee consequences, or you don't have the stomach to follow through once those consequences begin to be felt. Or maybe they just thought that housing for all the kids they were going to separate from parents would appear by magic? As per usual, you are giving the administration a lot more credit than it deserves. "Oh goodness golly deary me, they had the best of intentions but they just had no idea that it would result in crying children!" Yeah, okay.
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Post by celawson on Aug 1, 2018 12:37:44 GMT -5
I don't disagree with anything but your last paragraph, really. I didn't give the admin credit for anything except changing the policy. Whether they changed it because they are "weaklings" or because the outrage was so high they had no choice, or because they were "woke", I don't know and I assume it's different for a lot of people involved. The bottom line is that America was outraged, and that outrage resulted in the appropriate change. That's America. Thank gooodness.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 13:39:21 GMT -5
Thank goodness for Americans who will scream bloody murder when their president does something heartless, inexcusable, incompetent, and unconstitutional! Hurray us! (Just curious, c.e. -- did you write your congress critter on this? Or hey, at least tweet Trump and tell him it was awful and he needed to stop? You and your fellow Trump supporters are the ones he cares about.) As Amadan notes, it was perfectly obvious that separating the kids from their parents would cause screaming and crying. Plus one to everything in Amadan's last post. But the fact it, the Trump administration was explicitly told--before the policy was implemented-- that this policy would cause emotional trauma to the children. From the Wapo article linked to that tweet: See also bloom.bg/2KeKtY9And as my posts and cites make abundantly clear, Trump's executive order did NOT fix this problem. He initially refused to reunite the thousands of children he'd already separated from their parents until a court forced him to do it. There are still hundreds of children he's trying to avoid reuniting with their parents because, oopsie, he deported the parents and doesn't know where they and/or their kids are. He knew. Even if it weren't abundantly obvious on its face, he was expressly told by an expert, BEFORE the policy was implemented. HE KNEW. He simply didn't care. Do U?
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Post by Deleted on Aug 1, 2018 13:48:25 GMT -5
By the way, the Trump administration destroyed many of the records pertaining to these kids. www.nytimes.com/2018/07/05/us/migrant-children-chaos-family-separation.htmlRemember that they've deported parents and have no clue where they are. Many of these children are tiny babies who cannot speak yet. How the fuck are they going to reunite them, or even find them? Even if you can get past the heartlessness, the incompetence is unforgivable. When I leave my coat in a coatcheck room, I get a damn ticket for it. When you go to prison, they take your personal possessions -- but they carefully record and keep them for you, and you get them back on release. Here, they confiscated their meager possessions and their children, then booted them out of the country penniless and childless. Oh, but they didn't MEAN to do it? They just didn't realize it would be bad? Then they have no goddamn business running a coatcheck room, much less a country.
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Post by Deleted on Aug 24, 2018 20:42:03 GMT -5
This is your periodic reminder that hundreds of children remain separated from their families despite the court order, and that the consequences of the separations are forever.
I hate this administration with the heat of a hundred supernovas.
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Post by Vince524 on Aug 25, 2018 10:49:48 GMT -5
I've been really busy lately & haven't commented much in the forum. My apologies. I've not read this entire thread, but wanted to put in my 2 cents. (Which is probably worth about 1 cent.) The immigration policy in the US is broken, and has been for sometime. That didn't start under Trump. Trump's goal has been to be 'tough' on the border. In essence to make coming to the US so difficult and painful, that people would stop. It's not working, and the consequences are horrific. I think we have a right to control our border, but once someone comes, we need to treat them humanely. This is not us doing that. People who come and request asylum should be heard. Many are fleeing horrific conditions. There's room for disagreement on what we should do. But in the end, how we treat children coming into our care is a reflection of us, not them. And it's not reflecting well. As an aside, I got invited to participate in a charity anthology for this issue. I donated 2 short stories. It came out the other day. Here are the charities we're supporting. supportkind.org/innovationlawlab.org/
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Post by Deleted on Aug 25, 2018 10:56:52 GMT -5
My copy just materialized on my Nook!
Thank you for helping, Vince.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 12, 2018 7:45:45 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Sept 30, 2018 21:28:10 GMT -5
This is your periodic reminder that our government is still shuffling migrant children (orphaned courtesy of the U.S. Gov't) around in the dead of night.
The trouble with now is that there is so very much fucked up stuff going on it's pretty much impossible to keep up with. I would bet that some fucked up stuff is going on right now that we don't yet know anything about.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2019 8:29:38 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2019 8:56:30 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2019 9:59:21 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2019 15:15:38 GMT -5
ETA:
I would literally die before I'd make the argument this woman lawyer makes in the video. Put a gun to my head and order me to make it or you'd shoot, I would tell you to shoot.
Definitely I would quit my job before I'd make it.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 22, 2019 18:15:29 GMT -5
Please read the linked article. These are little kids. This is our government.
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