|
|
Post by Optimus on Dec 21, 2016 4:38:29 GMT -5
In this week's episode of, "Plucky millennial not even old enough to drink yet already has life all figured out," a kid at Kansas State just dropped out after his first (freshman) semester because he has declared that college is a "scam" and that, even though he was an engineering student, he doesn't see the point in being forced to take math. He's bragging that he dropped out with a 4.0...after one semester...of his freshman year...taking all gen ed courses. Ooh...how impressive. Let your eyes drink in his sage wisdom: Unfortunately for Billy, K State does offer classes on marriage and how to do taxes. He just didn't bother to stay in long enough to take them. www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/12/21/freshman-announces-hes-dropping-out-kansas-state-and-sets-debate-general-educationOh, but it gets better... Oh, it just gets better and better. And what kind of business has young, "already have life figured out before 20" Billy decided to start? That's right. His brilliant business model is selling t-shirts for parties, which any idiot can do on teespring.com (which is where he is currently selling his "Fuck College" t-shirts. www.kstatecollegian.com/2016/12/19/4-0-k-state-student-drops-out-says-college-is-a-scam/I can't wait until he has to get a real job and, not only will he likely not be able to get a well-paying one without a college degree (dropping out after one semester never looks good on a resume), but he might have trouble finding a job at all once his potential employer does a simple Google search for his name and see this pic as one of the first things that pops up:  Fucking idiot. |
|
|
|
Post by Rolling Thunder on Dec 21, 2016 6:53:14 GMT -5
*hides all sharp, pointy objects from opty*
|
|
|
|
Post by Don on Dec 21, 2016 7:01:51 GMT -5
Yeah, Billy's an idiot. But the things he points out in that first paragraph, before he goes off the rail? He's not the only one saying those particular things. Some damned smart people are pointing out those exact problems with higher education.
While his prescriptions are about what you'd expect from a teen-ager whose spent his whole life so far in government school, his diagnosis is spot on.
Better to find an idiotic messenger, and shoot him, I suppose, than an intelligent one whose points must be debated.
|
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Dec 21, 2016 7:32:53 GMT -5
I really hate the "why do I need to learn math/trig/calculus-type spiel. Just the other day, I got stuck underneath a curve during a thunderstorm and needed to known how much room there was left over. Thank God I can do higher math.
|
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Dec 21, 2016 9:55:13 GMT -5
While his prescriptions are about what you'd expect from a teen-ager whose spent his whole life so far in government school, his diagnosis is spot on. The vast majority of Americans spend their teenage years in government schools, the exceptions being those rich enough to go to private schools. Come off it, Don. His lack of awareness or foresight is fairly typical of teenagers, but has nothing to do with the fact that he went to a public school. As for being spot on, he's right in some places, wrong in others. College costs have become exorbitant, and in going for the easy shot, you missed the opportunity to actually lay the blame on the government where it belongs - the move to make college "affordable and available to (pretty much literally) everyone" led to public and private college loans being made available to everyone, which meant a huge influx of cash that has caused colleges to increase fees in order to suck up all that (for their students) future crushing debt. The cost of textbooks is ridiculous, but when you consider that they are very expensive to print and have a very limited market (even with printing "new editions" every year to try to limit their resaleability), that's inevitable, though perhaps not to the degree we are seeing now. The bullshit about how an engineer doesn't need to know the quadratic equation... Ironically, the real scam he didn't even mention was useless degrees that really are pretty much good for nothing but saddling you with debt. I.e., most liberal arts degrees, but especially the more esoteric/fru-fru ones. I have nothing against liberal arts and I really do believe we need people to study the humanities, but the reality is that the job market is very limited, so you'd damn well better have a plan for post-graduation that doesn't involve someone hiring you just because you are a special Grievance Studies snowflake. But this guy was in engineering - he was (if he hadn't bailed after one semester) on track to get a STEM degree. Something that would actually make him employable. That said, it's easy to make fun of college students who do dumb things and blast it on social media. I kind of feel sorry for him. He'll regret this in a few years, when he's older and wiser and it's too late. Nah, I'm lying. I don't feel sorry for him at all. Dumbass. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 9:58:40 GMT -5
The kid is a dumbass, and I can't blame it solely on his being a kid, since at his age I was reading beyond the required coursework just because. I disagree entirely with the idea that any higher learning is a waste of time if it isn't directly and obviously used in one's daily life and doesn't go towards pulling in a paycheck. Everything you learn broadens you just a bit. Learning in a few disciplines does so in a few directions. Learning how to fucking think -- as opposed to memorizing a few scraps of facts -- is what school should be about. Unfortunately, grades K-12 increasingly seem to be about preparing for standardized tests and a lot of people seem to regard college as a mere way to get a piece of paper with some letters on it, which is perhaps why more and more people seem incapable of doing anything more profound than parrot slogans. Perhaps we should toss all literature and all music in the trash, since it is useless. Ditto with philosophy -- who cares about what some dead white guy said? Why study math when we can pull out a calculator? Why bother with any of that nonsense when we can all spend our time tweeting inane dumb ass shit at each other all day long and masturbating? A couple of dweebs like Optimus can keep all wachajigger machiney things going. As for our brains, pfft, let them dribble out our ears as we switch away from Trump's state of the union address to watch the Kardashians. eta: gives Optimus back his pointy things. |
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 10:09:21 GMT -5
goddamn no good useless whippersnappers get off my damn lawn why when I was a kid...
|
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Dec 21, 2016 10:15:16 GMT -5
Oh, I don't think higher learning is a waste of time. I was actually a liberal arts major as an undergrad.
Of course, I graduated during a recession, couldn't find a job, and ended up joining the Army. So that may color my perspective a bit.
I am all for studying whatever you think will enrich your life and expand your boundaries. I just think students today have to have a very realistic understanding of what their opportunities will be. I was in the last generation that was still being told "A college degree is evidence all by itself that you are smart and educated and will be a good fit for whatever employers need." Hah. Well, no one believes that anymore, or shouldn't. Yes, it used to be that a college degree was an achievement in itself and many employers were willing to hire anyone with a degree and the right attitude. That isn't true anymore. I wish the world had room for an infinite number of English and Women's Studies majors, but it doesn't. So if you decide to study Art History or Philosophy, it's all very well to say that it will broaden you (it will!), but erudition doesn't put food on the table.
It is what it is. Much of this is the result of making college something that "everyone" is supposed to do. If everyone has a college degree, then how much you can you expect out of it?
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 10:21:31 GMT -5
I was an English Lit major. I went to law school.
I agree not everyone needs or will appreciate a college education. We need plumbers, too. But to the extent we have universities, I do not think we should dumb them down and gear them towards efficiently turning out pieces of paper with letters stamped on them.
|
|
|
|
Post by celawson on Dec 21, 2016 11:14:21 GMT -5
I do agree that college today in the U.S. is a scam. College has become too exorbitant for anyone but the rich to indulge in an esoteric degree that won't lead directly to a career. Seriously. I, as a parent, would not pay the tuition I'm paying now for my daughter (32K a year plus room and board) if she didn't have the plan she has and the personality/brains to succeed (she's a psychology-sociology double major with plans for either psychology (criminal profiling) or law school after undergrad and she achieved all high As this quarter (yes, her first)). And even in those programs that lead more directly to a career, those kids are frequently saddled with debt that precludes other important life steps like buying a house.
I initially was a communication arts major at my Los Angeles area university and wanted to be a screen writer. (My university has a great track record for success in that) But the summer before freshman year I realized how unrealistic that was, and in our middle class family, even back then my private school tuition was a stretch for my dad. So I changed to a biology major for plans to get into med school. That said, I minored in theology because I loved it and because I thought delving into those higher questions in life was an opportunity for enrichment and not simply a means to an end.
I don't think everyone is cut out for university, nor do I think everyone should go. To that end, I do think high school should offer classes which prepare those kids (the ones not cut out for college) for life - how to manage money, training for plumbing/construction etc.) Who knows, this kid might have an entrepreneurial spirit and be hugely successful . If not, he could always to back to college. In any event, at this point he saved himself a huge debt. (Engineering, though, is one of those majors where that tuition would most likely pay off.)
|
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Dec 21, 2016 11:18:39 GMT -5
Going to law school is a viable plan with a liberal arts degree. (If you get into a top law school - my understanding is that the market is pretty glutted right now and that lawyers who didn't graduate from top schools are often in the same boat with the Art History majors.)
My argument is actually the reverse of dumbing down universities. The problem is that universities have been dumbed down and turned into vocational centers.
I just don't see a way that the modern economy can support millions of people of indifferent intellect and academic ability majoring in random areas of interest with not much real world applicability if there aren't jobs to support the level of debt they're taking on to study those majors.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Dec 21, 2016 11:32:54 GMT -5
Going to law school is a viable plan with a liberal arts degree. (If you get into a top law school - my understanding is that the market is pretty glutted right now and that lawyers who didn't graduate from top schools are often in the same boat with the Art History majors.) My argument is actually the reverse of dumbing down universities. The problem is that universities have been dumbed down and turned into vocational centers. I just don't see a way that the modern economy can support millions of people of indifferent intellect and academic ability majoring in random areas of interest with not much real world applicability if there aren't jobs to support the level of debt they're taking on to study those majors. I agree with this. Universities should NOT be vocational centers, and they should NOT be teaching basic stuff the kid should have learned already. A vocational school is the place for the former, a remedial school (assuming the kid didn't learn the stuff in high school) the place for the latter. At one time, the city where I grew up had two high school tracks to choose from -- one was college geared, and one was vocationally geared. If you did the former, you had a range of classes that included the option for some Advanced Placement classes that would give you a step up in college, if you could handle the advanced work. Or not, if you weren't ready for it. The vocational track gave some practical courses that would enable you to step right into a career that didn't require higher math, etc. I always thought that was a good idea. That's all gone now, of course, along with the gifted kid program I was in. Now, from what I hear, they pretty much lump the kids together and assume they're all the same in needs and abilities, which I think is a vast mistake. Lumping a kid who is reading at a fourth year college level in grade school in with kids who have trouble reading a basic newspaper article in a class with 30 kids -- at least one will lose, and probably both. Every kid should graduate high school with the ability to read well, do basic math, etc. Some kids (I was one) would have gone insane with boredom if that were all that were offered. I actually did not need classes that taught basic life skills and they bored the fuck out of me to the extent I was required to take them. I understand some kids might need to learn how to balance a checkbook, make out a shopping list, and boil an egg -- yeah, I didn't, and it was a waste of time and my brain to make me do it. So I admit I roll my eyes a bit when people talk about having schools teach this stuff to every kid. I suppose it is elitist of me, but I really think it's a dire mistake to assume all kids enter school armed with equal abilities, capabilities, and inclinations, and should receive exactly the same education. ETA: I understand the worry about kids being saddled with debt they have to pay back when they graduate. It is not good that some kids take on six figures of debt without much awareness that the degrees they are getting won't enable them to pay it back. But I worry -- a lot -- when people talk about scaling back student loans etc. I could not have gotten the education I did without loans. My parents did not give me a dime for school. I got a partial scholarship, but the rest was financed by loans, including my living expenses. I paid them back and I'm damn grateful I could get them. However, before I took them on, I did take due consideration of my potential to pay them back. Were I czar of the universe, I'd keep student loans available, but I'd make sure guidance offices in schools were providing ample, brutally honest information about what it would be like to pay them back. Amadan is quite right, for example, that if you attend Yale or Harvard law school, you'll have no trouble at all paying back your loans. But if you go to a lower tier law school, you may find yourself in serious trouble when you graduate. I considered all that before I saddled myself with debt. Some kids don't -- and that's one thing we should push for them understanding before they take on debt. |
|
|
|
Post by Amadan on Dec 21, 2016 11:50:40 GMT -5
However, before I took them on, I did take due consideration of my potential to pay them back. Were I czar of the universe, I'd keep student loans available, but I'd make sure guidance offices in schools were providing ample, brutally honest information about what it would be like to pay them back. Amadan is quite right, for example, that if you attend Yale or Harvard law school, you'll have no trouble at all paying back your loans. But if you go to a lower tier law school, you may find yourself in serious trouble when you graduate. I considered all that before I saddled myself with debt. Some kids don't -- and that's one thing we should push for them understanding before they take on debt. It's comparable to the housing bubble that was caused by banks giving mortgages to people who clearly didn't have the ability to pay them and had little idea of what they were getting into. In an ideal world, both debtor and debtee would exercise due diligence before taking on debt. In the real world, this is actively discouraged. Along with tracking, or acknowledging that some people are smarter and/or more academically inclined than others. Hence my skepticism about higher education in general. |
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Dec 21, 2016 13:17:42 GMT -5
There's a huge difference between complain about the $ it takes to earn a degree, vs the idea that you actually have to learn and master difficult subject that are required to actually do the job.
|
|
|
|
Post by Optimus on Dec 21, 2016 14:28:44 GMT -5
I'll admit the kid does make a few good points, but I doubt that they're points he came up with himself.
The cost of textbooks is ridiculous. You spend $200 to $300 on a book that you'll barely use for one semester and when you try to sell it back to the bookstore 4 months later in like-new condition, they barely give you 50% for it but will resell it at a $75 mark-up. Textbook publishers also demand revisions from many authors/editors after only two years so that they can release a new version every two or three years. If there is online content for the book, they cancel all access for older versions of the book. And, in a lot of cases, the only thing they change in the supposed "updated" version is a few words or paragraphs.
That's why our department uses a text that is offered in a free PDF version. Students can download the free PDF or they can purchase a hard copy of the text for $60. The hard copy does come with access to several online study aids that the online version does not but, honestly, they're not needed (at least not in my class).
However, we also use a textbook in our research classes that totally sucks, and we only use it because former faculty members wrote it. Of the 3, one of them still teaches there, so I think it's still used out of respect (even though he doesn't teach the class and doesn't really care what book they use). The book really is horrible, though, and it's dumb that I'm forced to use it. I'm not teaching that class in the spring but I probably will in the summer, so I think I'm gonna tell the kids to save their money and I'll just provide some in-class articles or other materials instead.
And, tuition is ridiculous these days. I teach at the university that I got my undergrad degrees at. When I was an undergrad, a full semester of college (12 hours and up) cost just under $1000/semester for in-state students. 16 years later, it is 4 times that amount.
The differences in cost between in-state and out-of-state tuition is also absurd bullshit. At most schools, tuition is 2 to 3 times for out-of-state students what it is for in-state. And, there's really no good reason for it other than "because they can." For public schools that get state funding, the funding is based on enrollment and matriculation. Doesn't matter where the students are from. The state goes by the raw numbers.
And, I also agree that there are many gen ed courses that are total wastes of time. For instance, for my major, I had to one statistics course. But, all social sciences majors were required to take two semesters of calculus. You know what I've never used in my entire career? Calculus. You know what I used all throughout grad school and every week of my career so far? Statistics. Calculus was a total waste of my time. I don't even remember how to do it and I don't feel bad about that at all.
When I was an undergrad, I was required by my university to take a 1 credit hour health course and a 1 credit hour "physical activity" course. So, I was basically forced to shell out $200 and waste two semesters of my life to run a mile and learn that smoking was bad for me. Thankfully, they don't require that anymore.
Having said all of that, this kid is still an idiot. He gave up a college education in a decent career path at a good school so that he could sell t-shirts because he thinks he already has the world figured out. If he'd left to instead go to vocational school so that he could learn a trade, I would've respected that decision.
But, leaving because he thinks that college, overall, is a "SCAM" and he seems to think he can learn everything he needs to know by watching YouTube videos? As if an employer (after his business likely fails) will accept "YouTube videos" as education qualifications on a resume? And then he makes such a smug, ill-informed, poorly punctuated post on it so he could become a social-media flash-in-the-pan?
Yeah, I still say fuck that kid. The real world will teach him a real lesson soon enough.
|
|
