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Post by Amadan on Jan 27, 2017 11:20:27 GMT -5
2) Wasted resources are wasted. Another place where The. Science. Is. Settled. The primary difference between these two supremely wasteful examples is that one day in the future, even more resources will have to be wasted to tear down miles and miles of ridiculous walls. Building The Wall TM is, in the long run, even more wasteful than having people dig holes and immediately fill them back in. Let's say we agree that the Science. Is. Settled. about the government creating jobs. It does not follow that the government should never spend money on anything, because obviously the government has functions besides creating jobs. So whether or not $7 billion spent on education or $38 billion spent on a wall is wasteful depends on more than just how many jobs the two projects do or don't create.
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Post by celawson on Jan 27, 2017 12:25:46 GMT -5
We'll be happy we have that wall when the zombie apocalypse hits.
But to be serious for a moment, I just do not get why this wall is even a big deal. We are a sovereign country. We have borders. We have fences along a good part of the border. We have walls in some places already. People disregard these borders. We have laws against disregarding the borders. We have criteria and limits on who is allowed to come into the country. Why should we get so upset over this friggin wall?
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Post by Amadan on Jan 27, 2017 12:57:26 GMT -5
We'll be happy we have that wall when the zombie apocalypse hits. But to be serious for a moment, I just do not get why this wall is even a big deal. We are a sovereign country. We have borders. We have fences along a good part of the border. We have walls in some places already. People disregard these borders. We have laws against disregarding the borders. We have criteria and limits on who is allowed to come into the country. Why should we get so upset over this friggin wall? Convince me (a) that $38 billion will actually significantly decrease illegal immigration; (b) that the net benefits will be greater than other things we could spend $38 billion on.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 13:04:39 GMT -5
Convince me (a) that $38 billion will actually significantly decrease illegal immigration; (b) that the net benefits will be greater than other things we could spend $38 billion on. + eleventy million Even if it stopped illegal immigration entirely, even if we wouldn't have to spend still more money to maintain and staff it for it to be worth a damn, I don't think anyone could possibly convince me that illegal immigrants do anything like $38 billion worth of harm to our country.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 27, 2017 13:15:48 GMT -5
I can see the ? being raised about worth vs cost, with effectiveness built in. But the more illegal immigrants we have, the more spending we have on programs for many. There is a cost and I'd love for there to be a real plan to stop it. However it seems like if you want to stop it you're labeled a racist.
How about Kate's law, that says if you're here illegally, get arrested and convicted for a violent crime, then deported, and return, you can be jailed for 5 years.
But do we need a wall?
Just put up a big ass picture of Trump facing Mexico. That'll keep 'em out.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 13:35:45 GMT -5
I'm 100% in favor of punishing those who commit violent crimes, whether they are here legally or illegally. And if they're here illegally, I'm all in favor of deporting them after that. Violent crime is unacceptable, whoever commits it.
I'm not so in favor of punishing those who simply pick our fruit and clean our floors, live here peacefully trying to make a better life for their family, and perhaps escaped some horrors back home. Were it not so incredibly difficult to come here legally these days, I might be less sympathetic. But it is. They never would have let my grandparents come here if they were coming over today.
ETA:
I'm torn on the giant picture of Trump's ass. On the one hand, it would be cheaper than the wall. On the other hand, it would be a bigger blot on the landscape.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 27, 2017 13:37:56 GMT -5
I am not in favor of open borders. I am not even in favor of increasing immigration. I am, in fact, in favor of tightening immigration.
But I think building a wall along the Mexican border is a big expensive symbolic gesture, not an actual solution to a problem, and not remotely a cost-effective one.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 13:44:49 GMT -5
Though I do favor loosening immigration, I agree with you completely that the wall would not be an effective way to keep out illegal immigrants -- certainly not $38 billion dollars worth of effective.
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Post by celawson on Jan 27, 2017 13:52:02 GMT -5
Just the health care alone I see estimated at between 3.8 to 10 billion dollars a year for illegal immigrants depending on the source. Education is another biggie that can run into the tens of billions, again depending on the source. There are other costs, and there are benefits to consider. It's complicated, but I think it's safe to say it's expensive.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 27, 2017 14:45:28 GMT -5
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Post by Amadan on Jan 27, 2017 15:17:03 GMT -5
Just the health care alone I see estimated at between 3.8 to 10 billion dollars a year for illegal immigrants depending on the source. Education is another biggie that can run into the tens of billions, again depending on the source. There are other costs, and there are benefits to consider. It's complicated, but I think it's safe to say it's expensive. Give me a ballpark estimate, or point to a source that provides one - how much do you think building a wall will reduce the rate of illegal immigration? (Almost) no one is saying that reducing illegal immigration would not be desirable. But that's kind of like saying "We should improve public education, so let's dump $7 billion into public schools." Explain why you think one is bad and the other isn't.
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Post by celawson on Jan 27, 2017 15:49:36 GMT -5
Hi Cass. I can get you some cites tonight. Out of the house in 5 for a while.
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Post by Don on Jan 28, 2017 6:40:37 GMT -5
This silly little meme sums up my feelings about the wall. It's not just about the money, to me.
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Post by Vince524 on Jan 28, 2017 20:07:03 GMT -5
(Almost) no one is saying that reducing illegal immigration would not be desirable. I don't know. They're not saying those words, but for years we've been heard anyone who wanted to stop illegal immigration that you were anti immigration. And I'm hearing people say stuff like, "No human is illegal." It all comes down to the same thing. Shaming anyone who thinks we should find a way to stop illegal immigration. People hear the 'wall' and they can picture a physical barrier. It's something they understand. Whether it'll work or not is a different matter. It's also a different argument than "I don't want to live in a country with a wall." I'm fine with a discussion of not having the wall because it won't help the illegal immigration situation, but I don't get the one where it's immoral and racist to try and want to.
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Post by Amadan on Jan 28, 2017 23:29:48 GMT -5
I'm fine with a discussion of not having the wall because it won't help the illegal immigration situation, but I don't get the one where it's immoral and racist to try and want to. The discussion we are having HERE is whether or not the wall will be effective. No one HERE is calling anyone immoral and racist.
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