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Post by Amadan on Feb 17, 2017 11:10:03 GMT -5
I'm not saying he shouldn't be mocked or called a buffoon. I'm saying that people need to start treating him seriously with point-by-point demolishing of his arguments, however tedious that may be.
This is why I use that technique myself. It's wearying, tedious, and aggravating to have to deal with liars, trolls, and buffoons by going through everything they say, however self-evidently full of shit it may be, and responding to each point as if it were worthy of serious consideration. But just saying "LOL! You're such a fucking idiot!" while emotionally satisfying (and often true) does not get the job done of tearing them down before an audience that has ideological sympathies with the fucking idiot.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 11:13:33 GMT -5
I agree that's what we've got to do -- although I think we still aren't, by and large, going to reach the diehard Joe Sixpacks. We might, however, reach the reluctant fence-sitters.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 17, 2017 12:48:48 GMT -5
Trump characterized his administration so far as a "fine-tuned machine", and of course, railed against the media, fake news, and leaks. Interestingly, while railing against the leaks, he also seems to be at least implying that some of what was "leaked" was "fake news": Dear President Trump:
I know as a rule it's easier to get your attention via morning news shows and twitter, but I have something important to explain, and naturally, I could only express it in Courier font.
Here's your problem: in order for information to be "leaked" it actually has to be true. Because, see, if it's not true, it never happened, and therefore couldn't be leaked by anyone. It's just a lie. A lie could have come from anywhere -- Elizabeth Warren, Russia, some 400 pound person, robeiae , Angie *...
Either it is lies -- hence, fake news -- or it was leaked. Choose one.
Sincerely,
CassandraW
P.S. -- It definitely could have been Angie.
For the record, I'm officially under 400 lbs now. Down 96 lbs from where I was nearly 2 years ago.
And that's not fake news.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 13:02:45 GMT -5
Congratulations, Vince -- that's an amazing accomplishment!
Of course, you're still on the suspect list for the Trump leaks. Though I still think it's probably Angie.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 17, 2017 14:29:37 GMT -5
I don't know how to pretend he's anything else. My not calling him a buffoon isn't going to make Joe Sixpack think twice about Trump, if he hasn't already, and if calling that buffoon a buffoon only makes them double down. But you're not a reporter, nor are you a member of Congress, or a Federal employee who works in an executive branch-controlled department. And regardless, sinking to a lower level is still sinking to a lower level. Name-calling is still name-calling, even if the target of such engages in the same or worse.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 14:52:00 GMT -5
No, I'm a lawyer. If what one says is true, it isn't slander. I actually made myself watch that press conference. Buffoon doesn't begin to cover it.
I am calling Trump as I see him. You are free to call him differently, if you choose. IMO, he is a threat to our republic and everything it stands for.
ETA:
I'm afraid I really do think he's that bad. Very, very, tremendously, yuuuuugely terrible. You never saw anything so terrible, believe me. Sad.
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 17, 2017 15:00:30 GMT -5
A lot of people don't understand what the job of the press is and that includes Donald J. Trump who says any news coverage he dislikes is "unfair" and "fake news." Which is a load. Politicians in general and presidents specifically should have a mutually respectful, but ultimately adversarial relationship with the press. That's the way it should be. The Fourth Estate should keep a watchful eye on the president, the legislators and the judges and when necessary keep a foot in their ass. Trump loves the press when they flatter him or he can use them for his own ends otherwise he hates their stinking guts. Maybe he should, but then again, if Trump feels a little salty towards the media, he's done his part to make it that way. Remember when he was still President-Elect and he summoned the media to Trump Tower where he berated them for their coverage? If he felt that way before he got the job, he's really got reasons to be pissed at the coverage he's getting now. But this didn't happen in a vacuum. This fight between the two was bound to happen as one star ascends while the other descends. Some people believe Trump is being treated differently by the press than other presidents and they're right, but that's because Trump isn't like any other president. Obama had a Twitter account too, but he didn't use it to rail against federal judges, U.S. senators, other countries and Nordstrom. Trump brags he's got a thick skin, but nothing about the way he reacts and responds to any perceived slight gives credence to the boast. He has no humility, no filter, no "off" switch. This is the real Trump and it's not going to get better. It's only going to get worse and once Trump stops fumbling and figures it out a bit, it's going to get much worse. Who will call Trump out on his excesses, his conflicts of interest, his thoughtless and often crude comments, his mendacity and rotten policies? The Democrats can't and the Republicans won't. That's when America will need an energized and engaged press willing and able to take on Trump. When the President of the United States is acting like a fucking idiot someone has to be in the position to tell him.
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Post by robeiae on Feb 17, 2017 15:32:09 GMT -5
No, I'm a lawyer. If what one says is true, it isn't slander. Of course. Did I suggest Trump was being slandered? And terms like "buffoon" reflect simple name-calling, regardless. There's no truth-value to be had there. Hey, I call him things on occasion, too. I'm still partial to "grifter" because I think it's accurate and more than just an insult. But I'm good with "assclown" and many other things--including "buffoon"--because they mesh with my point of view. Nonetheless, it's still basically name-calling. People can pat themselves on the back to their heart's content because they imagine that they're "willing" to do this. But don't try to tell me that it's not helping to lower political discourse and standards overall (in the moment, to be sure), because it is. As Amadan says, it's not effective as a means of changing minds--or at least giving people a reason to think--at all. I watched the press conference, too. And while I felt embarrassed by Trump, I also felt embarrassed by many of the journalists who were participating. It's all very, very ugly. And imo, adding to the ugliness is not helping. At all.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 16:04:43 GMT -5
No, I'm a lawyer. If what one says is true, it isn't slander. Of course. Did I suggest Trump was being slandered? And terms like "buffoon" reflect simple name-calling, regardless. There's no truth-value to be had there. Hey, I call him things on occasion, too. I'm still partial to "grifter" because I think it's accurate and more than just an insult. But I'm good with "assclown" and many other things--including "buffoon"--because they mesh with my point of view. Nonetheless, it's still basically name-calling. People can pat themselves on the back to their heart's content because they imagine that they're "willing" to do this. But don't try to tell me that it's not helping to lower political discourse and standards overall (in the moment, to be sure), because it is. As Amadan says, it's not effective as a means of changing minds--or at least giving people a reason to think--at all. I watched the press conference, too. And while I felt embarrassed by Trump, I also felt embarrassed by many of the journalists who were participating. It's all very, very ugly. And imo, adding to the ugliness is not helping. At all. I agree it's ugly. Unfortunately, though, I'm beginning to feel that being intelligent and attempting to reason with people is useless, for the most part. If someone watches that press conference and their reaction isn't "what the holy fuck was that?", I cannot think explaining what's wrong with his behavior will do it. It's like explaining why water is wet or why shit stinks. Some people actually love the exact stuff about Trump that horrifies me. I'm related to one or two of them. Neither reason nor scorn will make the slightest dent if that is where someone is coming from. Others don't care for him, but they swallow him as a nasty pill with their teaspoon of sugar that at last conservatives have total control, and hey, let's give him a chance and see how it works. They are seeing the same crazy shit I see, but they're willing to paper over it, or convince themselves it's harmless because Pence et al. maybe can keep him under control and prevent anything too awful. It will take an actual disaster to demonstrate otherwise. (And even then -- how bad will that disaster have to be?) Meanwhile, treating Trump's chaos, lies, and grotesque bluster as though they are equivalent to rational conservative positions upon which we can debate -- well, yeah, they're not. Treating them as though they are legitimizes them. And whom will our rational discourse convince? If, when you rationally assert and demonstrate that Trump has, e.g., told a blatant falsehood or contradicted himself, someone responds "oh, that's just from the biased liberal media/academia/whatever! FAKE NEWS!" -- well, where can you go with that? How can you prove anything, if they've dismissed anything you would use to demonstrate falsity? What if they just don't care if it's false? What can you prove when alternative facts are considered equivalent to -- or better than -- actual facts? What can you say when rash, ill-considered blunders are hailed as decisive action? When bombast and insult is cheered as someone being honest at last? We're in the world of doublethink and the two-minutes hate, where words mean their opposite, where inconvenient truths are sucked down the memory hole, where we've always been at war with Eastasia -- until next week, when they've always been our allies. I think it is time to face it -- a lot of people genuinely love Big Brother.
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 17, 2017 16:37:39 GMT -5
No, I'm a lawyer. If what one says is true, it isn't slander. Of course. Did I suggest Trump was being slandered? And terms like "buffoon" reflect simple name-calling, regardless. There's no truth-value to be had there. Hey, I call him things on occasion, too. I'm still partial to "grifter" because I think it's accurate and more than just an insult. But I'm good with "assclown" and many other things--including "buffoon"--because they mesh with my point of view. Nonetheless, it's still basically name-calling. People can pat themselves on the back to their heart's content because they imagine that they're "willing" to do this. But don't try to tell me that it's not helping to lower political discourse and standards overall (in the moment, to be sure), because it is. As Amadan says, it's not effective as a means of changing minds--or at least giving people a reason to think--at all. I watched the press conference, too. And while I felt embarrassed by Trump, I also felt embarrassed by many of the journalists who were participating. It's all very, very ugly. And imo, adding to the ugliness is not helping. At all. The burden is not simply on the press to cover the Trump Presidency in a fair, impartial and objective manner. It is also incumbent on Trump to deal with the press in something other than his typical oafish, bullying and petulant manner. Case in point:That's also the way Donald Trump is. After he finished humiliating Turx, he moved on to April Ryan and flat-out stereotyped her. Trump asked Ryan to set up the meeting because she's Black and so is the Congressional Black Caucus and because all us Black folks know each other and can holla at each anytime of day or night, we're super-convenient in setting up meetings with clueless assholes like Trump. People who expect the media to treat Trump better than Trump treats the media are living in the same La-La-Land he does.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 16:38:30 GMT -5
My post would be despair talking. Trump is a boot in the face to every value I hold dear -- including and especially truth and rationality.
Perhaps after the memory of that press conference fades a bit, I won't feel quite so hopeless.
Or not.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 19:13:21 GMT -5
Morning Joe on the press conference.
(Spoiler: they weren't impressed. I read somewhere that Trump sometimes watches this show. I hope so.)
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 17, 2017 20:58:11 GMT -5
No, I'm a lawyer. If what one says is true, it isn't slander. I actually made myself watch that press conference. Buffoon doesn't begin to cover it. I am calling Trump as I see him. You are free to call him differently, if you choose. IMO, he is a threat to our republic and everything it stands for. ETA: I'm afraid I really do think he's that bad. Very, very, tremendously, yuuuuugely terrible. You never saw anything so terrible, believe me. Sad. #NOTMYBUFFOON
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Post by Deleted on Feb 17, 2017 21:09:47 GMT -5
I love you, Vince524. I say we have a coup d'etat and install Vince as president. Bacon for everyone!
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Post by michaelw on Feb 17, 2017 21:50:45 GMT -5
I'd vote for Vince. Although if it's a coup, I guess voting is beside the point.
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