Occidental College Part Deux

Optimus
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Occidental College Part Deux May 4, 2017 15:04:36 GMT -5

Post by Optimus on May 4, 2017 15:04:36 GMT -5

Okay, I concede that point. I was using it more in the vernacular and not in the scientific/medical terminology. As a cognitive psychologist, I should've been more careful with my word choice, especially for something that I should have a bit more expertise than most. Point taken.

I think another thing that should be considered in these cases is that young people often exhibit poor judgment because their brains are not fully developed, specifically the frontal lobes which house large portions of our executive functions. Most people's frontal lobes aren't fully developed until their mid-20s.

So, you mix people who organically lack the full capacity for rational thought and decision-making in the first place with a drug that is known to suppress those brain functions as well, and you have a recipe for decisional disaster.

Then the question becomes, how should the legal system respond to those variables. How much blame and punishment should be levied toward people whose brains are less capable of making good, conscientious, rational decisions? That's one of the motivations for juvenile court, after all.

Should we perhaps be trying all people under 25 in juvie courts?

Last Edit: May 4, 2017 15:06:53 GMT -5 by Optimus: added a link

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Christine Illuminati Posts: 1,486	Occidental College Part Deux May 4, 2017 15:33:08 GMT -5 via mobile Post by Christine on May 4, 2017 15:33:08 GMT -5 I am not at all opposed to that idea. They shouldn't be sent off to fight in wars either. Pity we seem to start wanting to "procreate" at 13 or 14. Cruel prank of nature I guess.
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robeiae Thaumaturge On a down bound train Posts: 6,692	Occidental College Part Deux May 4, 2017 15:34:59 GMT -5 Post by robeiae on May 4, 2017 15:34:59 GMT -5 Nah, that's nature setting things up to maximize survival, plain and simple.
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Christine Illuminati Posts: 1,486	Occidental College Part Deux May 4, 2017 15:38:13 GMT -5 via mobile Post by Christine on May 4, 2017 15:38:13 GMT -5 Well, evolution should get on with it already.
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Vince524
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Occidental College Part Deux May 4, 2017 15:46:56 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 4, 2017 15:46:56 GMT -5

May 4, 2017 12:08:31 GMT -5 Christine said:

I feel very badly for any guy who is falsely accused. They shouldn't be, and it's unfortunate. See Cass's's's advice re: drinking and fucking above. It's what I tell/will tell all three of my sons, only much more emphatically.

The problem, for me, is when you take a case or two or three (eta: the false accusation cases) and talk about it like it's a goddamn epidemic.

Let me know when it's actually an epidemic.

I get what your saying, but it does seem to be a growing trend in colleges where there are little consequences for false accusations like there would be in a legal situation, and there's increased pressure to 'do something' with pressure from the feds of loss of all fed $ and social groups where it becomes easier to expel that to care about truth. How else would you explain at least 2 lawsuits that have to do with rapes where the 'victim' insists she wasn't raped?

And keep in mind, the growing # of cases are from students who are suing. Imagine you're a kid who got railroaded who can't afford to sue?

I'm also not comfortable with the comparison to cases where rape happened to say, hey this is the problem. One can be outraged at both. And it seems unfair to say a person falsely accused and punished should be shrugged off when they suffer not only in losing their education, job opportunities, have a transcript marked expelled for sexual assault and an inability to move on. There's also psychological damage. Many become suicidal.

www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/05/02/title-ix-cases-resulted-suicide-suicide-attempt-two-colleges-prompt-fresh-debate

helpsaveoursons.com/category/mothers-pain-for-falsely-accused-son/

Also, a young man shouldn't have to prove he didn't commit a crime before escaping consequences, but the reverse.

And it shouldn't take a lawsuit where courts are reluctant to overrule schools to correct obvious errors.

www.thecollegefix.com/post/9518/

The University of North Dakota will reinstate the student banned from campus last year after a university disciplinary panel convicted him of sexual assault. University officials determined the verdict was “not substantiated” by further evidence in the case; in May 2010, the accuser in the case was charged with making a false accusation by the Grand Forks County District Court. Despite the false report charge, the university did not overturn the punishment for the accused student, Caleb Warner, until this week.

So in the above case, the college and the police looked at the same evidence. The college expelled the accused, while the police issued a warrant for her arrest.

And when they were confronted with the truth, they wouldn't budge.

It took a lawsuit.

In finding Warner guilty, UND used the weak “preponderance of the evidence” standard (50.01% certainty) to determine guilt or innocence—the very same standard recently imposed upon every federally funded college in the country under an April 2011 regulation from the federal Department of Education’s Office for Civil Rights.

UND’s reliance on the “preponderance of the evidence” standard lowered the accuracy of the proceedings so much that the police and the university arrived at very different results. Using what the university later insisted was the very same evidence, UND’s campus tribunal convicted Warner of sexual assault, while the Grand Forks Police Department determined that Warner’s accuser had lied about what had happened.

If I recall, Mr. Warner decided not to continue with college. He settled for 15k to help with legal costs of suing and to have his transcript sealed. It would show no fault of the college and it would only be unsealed with his permission, which will be needed if he ever decides to go back to college.

How many can't sue?

And as I mentioned earlier, Findlay

www.newsweek.com/university-findlay-campus-rape-investigation-415331

Here’s what happened: Brown and Baity were friends and sexual partners of the accuser, a white female identified as “M.K.” On the night of September 21, 2014, M.K. had sex with them—separately, and while they were in the same room—in the house the two men shared with two other black male students.

According to the lawsuit, the housemates were present in the common area and could hear some of the sexual activities. At least two other white female students were also present. All agreed that M.K. consented to sex, and could at times hear her consenting to sex. Brown and Baity maintain that M.K. was not just a willing participant but the prime initiator of their various encounters that night.

M.K. went home the next morning and bore neither of the alleged perpetrators any ill will. According to the lawsuit, she explicitly told another student (J.F) that the sex was consensual—the lawsuit describes her as “bragging” about it. She also bragged about the encounter to a white female who lived on her floor.

Ten days after the encounter, M.K. filed a sexual assault claim with the university.

Findlay administrators interviewed Brown and Baity—without telling them the specific nature of the charges against them—but did not speak to their black housemates because they merely presumed these men would defend their friends.

Administrators did speak with the white women who were present (an example of racial discrimination, according to the lawsuit), and then, spectacularly, punished them when they disputed M.K.’s version of events. One of the women lost her work-study job, and the other was threatened with expulsion, according to the lawsuit.

No one agreed with M.K.’s claims except M.K. herself. On the contrary, all relevant witnesses sided with Brown and Baity. They were expelled 24 hours after M.K. filed the claim. There was no hearing, just a letter in the mail.

That wasn’t all. A few hours after they notified Brown and Baity of their expulsions, Findlay administrators sent an email to campus that “specifically identified Browning and Baity, falsely stated that they sexually assaulted a female student, and indicated that Plaintiffs were expelled from the University as a result of this conduct.”

So IMHO, the entire college system needs an overhaul of how it handles these things to be fair to both the accuser and the accused, because colleges aren't looking out for their students, just themselves.

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Christine
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Occidental College Part Deux May 4, 2017 16:16:13 GMT -5 via mobile

Post by Christine on May 4, 2017 16:16:13 GMT -5

You say "to be fair to both the accuser and the accused," but I don't see you, nor have I ever seen you, posting about cases where rape victims have been unfairly treated.

But fine, this is your particular "cause" for whatever reason.

In the OP case and one other you mentioned, it appears the criminal justice system found a lack of evidence to press criminal charges. So the colleges pursued the matter as a "civil" case of sorts. They can't put the alleged perpetrator in jail but they can still "punish" him. I don't like it, as a matter of principle. (I tend to disapprove of a lot of civil cases for monetary damages too.)

But the issue of rape on college campuses isn't like any other issue. This problem is singularly unique, and I think colleges are *attempting* to address a real problem. I'm not on board with claiming colleges are only doing this for money. That may well be what made some of them wake the fuck up, but that's not a bad thing.

Where their implementation of measures to try to reduce rape is unhelpful or harmful, I'm with you. But I disagree that by and large it's been harmful. And again, I'm sorry that a few guys have been falsely accused. Just like I'm sure you are sorry that thousands of women have been raped.

The solution is in educating people and in changing the narrative. The solution is a change in campus culture. College administrators seem to be at least attempting to do that.

Last Edit: May 4, 2017 16:16:27 GMT -5 by Christine

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Vince524
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Occidental College Part Deux May 4, 2017 19:56:41 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 4, 2017 19:56:41 GMT -5

May 4, 2017 16:16:13 GMT -5 Christine said:

You say "to be fair to both the accuser and the accused," but I don't see you, nor have I ever seen you, posting about cases where rape victims have been unfairly treated.

But fine, this is your particular "cause" for whatever reason.

In the OP case and one other you mentioned, it appears the criminal justice system found a lack of evidence to press criminal charges. So the colleges pursued the matter as a "civil" case of sorts. They can't put the alleged perpetrator in jail but they can still "punish" him. I don't like it, as a matter of principle. (I tend to disapprove of a lot of civil cases for monetary damages too.)

But the issue of rape on college campuses isn't like any other issue. This problem is singularly unique, and I think colleges are *attempting* to address a real problem. I'm not on board with claiming colleges are only doing this for money. That may well be what made some of them wake the fuck up, but that's not a bad thing.

Where their implementation of measures to try to reduce rape is unhelpful or harmful, I'm with you. But I disagree that by and large it's been harmful. And again, I'm sorry that a few guys have been falsely accused. Just like I'm sure you are sorry that thousands of women have been raped.

The solution is in educating people and in changing the narrative. The solution is a change in campus culture. College administrators seem to be at least attempting to do that.

I have posted about it. I can remember one case someplace else where I used a thread title of "Oops. I tripped. Trigger Warning." I remember a couple of others as well.

In the OP, the police and DA didn't just find a lack of enough evidence to press criminal charges, they explained that it didn't meet the elements of a crime. That while both Jane and John were intoxicated and guilty of bad judgement, she was able to resist if she wanted to. The text messages clearly indicate she was aware that she was going to have sex with John and intended to when she went to him. And considering the fact that she was the initiator at first, and then came to him, it was reasonable that John would assume she was able to consent. Remember, no force was used or alleged. And if the rule is going to be you can't have sex with someone who is intoxicated (Which you can legally be intoxicated after a beer or 2.) why wasn't the school concerned with the fact that she had sex with him while intoxicated.

One of the other cases I mentioned was where the man was arrested, yet was cleared via forensic, polygraph and video. It's still on his transcript.

I mentioned one where the police didn't find lack of evidence for an arrest. They issued a warrant for her arrest. It took a lawsuit to get the transcript sealed, not even expunged.

I mentioned a case where a 3rd party made the accusation, yet the 'victim' said she was fine, it wasn't rape and continued the relationship.

And trust me, there are more. How about over at Brandis University where a man accused his ex boyfriend of rape.

www.thecollegefix.com/post/22135/

Brandeis used secretive processes, ignored evidence and employed the wrong investigative process in finding the student guilty of six charges of sexual misconduct, according to the lawsuit.

“The accusations were frivolous on their face, but the Special Examiner’s findings were even more disturbing,” the lawsuit reads: “They were based on notions of what constitutes sexual misconduct and invasion of privacy that bordered on the absurd and defied common sense.”

The accuser, “J.C.,” filed only a two-sentence, unspecific complaint with Brandeis in January 2014, accusing his ex-boyfriend of “numerous inappropriate, nonconsensual sexual interactions” from September 2011 until May 2013, when their “exclusive” relationship ended.

That came at the behest of J.C., who was openly gay and “sexually experienced” while Doe was “in the closet” when they first met. J.C. allegedly said he wanted a partner who was “more forceful” with him.

Before an investigation or trial, the university essentially isolated Doe, “requiring him to remain sequestered in a campus facility, and banning him from his residence, classes, University paid job, University community advisor position, and elected position on a University Board.”

This college student lost a internship opportunity. The charges were severe. He kissed and looked at the man naked at times during their 21 month long relationship.

www.thecollegefix.com/post/26855/

The end result of the 89-page ruling: Brandeis must justify several of its practices, including the denial of cross-examination, the use of a single-investigator model, the refusal to provide the accused the specific allegations against him, and the suspicious use of the “more likely than not” evidence standard only in sexual-misconduct proceedings, whose results can have lifelong, severely negative consequences for the accused student.

Brandeis also must answer for some of the leaps in logic it made in Doe’s specific case, including the equation of kissing a sleeping romantic partner with sexual assault, Saylor wrote. (Keep in mind the investigator in Doe’s case was a co-author of OCR’s infamous 2011 “Dear Colleague” letter to schools.)

Here's part of the ruling.

Like Harvard, Brandeis appears to have substantially impaired, if not eliminated, an accused student’s right to a fair and impartial process. And it is not enough simply to say that such changes are appropriate because victims of sexual assault have not always achieved justice in the past. Whether someone is a “victim” is a conclusion to be reached at the end of a fair process, not an assumption to be made at the beginning. Each case must be decided on its own merits, according to its own facts. If a college student is to be marked for life as a sexual predator, it is reasonable to require that he be provided a fair opportunity to defend himself and an impartial arbiter to make that decision.

Put simply, a fair determination of the facts requires a fair process, not tilted to favor a particular outcome, and a fair and neutral fact-finder, not predisposed to reach a particular conclusion. The principal question for the Court is whether the complaint plausibly alleges that Brandeis denied John the “basic fairness” to which he was entitled. For the reasons set forth below, the Court concludes that it does.

I've got a ton of editing to do, so I won't link to the dozens of other cases I've read where the accused are suspended before the investigation, not allowed any type of defense, have to handle their case on their own, and many other things that seem to come up again and again.

But here's a small handful
Amherst. Amherst Student Was Expelled for Rape. But He Was Raped, Evidence Shows.
reason.com/blog/2015/06/11/amherst-student-was-expelled-for-rape-bu

Here another case, besides the Grant Neil one, where the accuser wasn't the victim and the victim
www.huffingtonpost.com/jessica-denis/title-ix-and-college-rape_1_b_10722304.html

Student A was never the complainant in the administrative proceeding with the University. In fact, after the incident in question, Mr. Doe and Student A continued to socialize, and she subsequently invited him to spend another night with her. Weeks later, an unidentified third party unilaterally reported the matter, and the University began to investigate.”

Many of the colleges that are doing this are the same ones who were hit with lawsuits for not taking sexual assault cases seriously. I don't think that's a coincidence.

Again, let's keep something in mind here. These young men are kicked out of college with a blackmark that means they can't continue at another college. They lose their scholarships. They have to pay back their student loans without getting their degree or a job that was dependent on it. They may have had life long dreams that are gone.

Not to mention the emotional issues.
www.westernjournalism.com/title-ix-and-college-rape-a-series-of-injustice-part-3/

Neither the police nor the school found any preponderance of guilt or responsibility, but that didn’t change the fact that a drawn-out three-month process took place. “It was the darkest time in my life,” he told me, saying the entire campus knew about the allegations. He said the looks he received from other students were devastating. He filed a complaint with the school against the woman for filing a false complaint, but instead of the school investigating, it told him he needed to just worry about graduating and put this all behind him. In 2014, he filed a Title IX complaint against the school. His complaint has been accepted by the Office for Civil Rights and he is still waiting for a determination from them. He has since graduated and is thinking about going to law school. He also lobbies Congress for change. He believes the 2011 “Dear Colleague” letter should be rescinded.

I also spoke with one mother who described to me the hell her son was put through after being another one of the “lucky” ones found not responsible. Post-traumatic stress disorder, anxiety, depression, and a 20-month wait on the OCR to respond to the complaint. Once the OCR finally did respond, the answer was “you are too late.”

If a student makes an accusation against another at a college, they should always recommend going to the police. The police can get evidence the college can't through warrants and dna and rape kits and such.

They should then use the report and all evidence. If a accused is acquitted, but not exonerated, all evidence presented at trial that wasn't enough to reach beyond a reasonable doubt should be used in the college hearing. So should all exculpatory evidence.

There's a difference between not enough evidence to prosecute and the case not meeting the elements of a rape, or worse, the police issuing a warrant for the arrest of the accuser. Those shouldn't take years of lawsuits to remove a finding of responsible.

The moment an accuser comes forward, they should be given any and all support possible, including but not limited to rape crisis and counseling if needed, and an advocate who will help them through the process.

They should also be forced to keep records to show they provided a fair process and in case the accuser decides to press charges after, if they don't right away.

A young man accused should also have an advocate who can make sure his rights aren't being violated.

The accused should be allowed a written copy of the rules, code of conduct and all case materials including what they're accused of doing, witnesses against them, and anything else. Any witnesses for the accused should also be given to the accusers advocate for them to review before a hearing.

Cross examination is a must. Again, this is where advocates come in. It seems unfair to tell a student he can only ask questions in advance on paper and then not even ask the majority of them.

They should be allowed to submit evidence. I read a case, I can't find it now, where a man was accused of holding a girl in he dorm room against her will, but his roommate and an RA said they spoke to her that night as she came and left.

And another one where he was found not responsible in part because one of her witnesses said she was lying. She appealed and they went through it again, this time he wasn't allowed to call that witness because it was her witness. They also listened to a voicemail that was left on the night in question and made it sound very credible that she was too drunk to consent. In discovery, they proved the voicemail was not from that night.

I would also say that if an accuser doesn't want to go to the police, they should try and handle it informally.

Now, back to the editing cave

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Christine Illuminati Posts: 1,486	Occidental College Part Deux May 4, 2017 20:45:32 GMT -5 via mobile Post by Christine on May 4, 2017 20:45:32 GMT -5 I'm going to take a wild guess that this is the subject of your WIP.
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Vince524
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Occidental College Part Deux May 4, 2017 21:02:34 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 4, 2017 21:02:34 GMT -5

No, but it's something I'm thinking about.

I actually did write a story involving college rape. A girl is nearly raped, save by a guy. I wrote it after a discussion of rape culture and tried to put in some stuff. Like one of her friends saying, "how could you be so stupid to be alone at night' type of thing. Someone else jumped in and made her realize how horrible it was.

And, ironically, there was a false rape accusation. Not from a victim, but from a DA trying to pin it on the Male MC for reasons. He was cleared beyond any doubt and of course the real rapist was caught.

The ironic part is that I feel like in real life, he would have still be expelled.

My current WIP does have murder and in the 3rd installment there will be a serial killer rapist who hasn't been in the book yet, but has affected everyone in there.

However, I will be adding something with this to my ever increasing pile of ideas. I've got about 8 that I have worked out basic outlines, ranging from high school suicide, to a serial killer father, to love in the zombie apocalypse.

Cheery stuff.

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Vince524
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Occidental College Part Deux May 5, 2017 11:31:04 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 5, 2017 11:31:04 GMT -5

I was able to locate another article worth noting on this. thefederalist.com/2017/05/03/lynn-university-settles-student-police-say-falsely-accused-sexual-assault/

This seems to be another too drunk to consent.

Police concurred after viewing campus video surveillance that showed the accuser right before and after her encounter with Doe, walking normally and talking to friends. Within 30 minutes of her encounter with Doe, she was seen holding two cups of liquid from the dining hall, and balancing on one foot and pushing the elevator door button with the other. Footage from just after the encounter showed the accuser with her arms around two other men, laughing and smiling. Again, she used her foot to kick the elevator door button.

Police deemed her accusation “unfounded,” and even the accuser made statements suggesting she was not raped. She said her friends “encouraged her” to report, as did her parents. Despite clear evidence indicating no rape occurred, Lynn University still suspended Doe for one year. During his campus hearing (a separate, quasi-judicial system college campuses set up to comply with federal regulations), the accuser was allowed to review all evidence, and her attorney was allowed to represent her. Doe was not granted the same treatment.

A year later, it was resolved through a settlement.

Doe’s story isn’t out of the ordinary, although he had the benefit of video evidence. Even with that evidence, Lynn was determined to punish him. It’s a common occurrence on college campuses, as schools—fearful of negative press and federal threats—work to “prove” they are dedicated to addressing campus sexual assault by punishing almost any accused student, no matter what the evidence shows.

Because schools are obligated to adjudicate these matters thanks to Obama-era guidance from the U.S. Department of Education, the typically male accused students have little recourse to clear their names outside of the legal system. Some men have successfully filed complaints with the USDOE’s Office for Civil Rights, but many have been turned away.

Getting justice then becomes a matter of luck and access to money. Across the country, male students accused of sexual assault have had to pay thousands, even hundreds of thousands of dollars attempting to clear their names of wrongdoing. Often, these court battles drag on for years, and families become weary. They become willing to accept settlements that simply remove the alleged transgression from the student’s transcript.

This may be the case in the Lynn incident, since the student isn’t receiving compensation for his attorney’s fees, but because most of these settlements are confidential, we can’t know for sure.

So again, the student had to bring a lawsuit to clear his transcript. It would appear any money for legal fees he's out, but not clear.
The victim wasn't convinced it was rape.
And this John Doe had the benefit of video to help his case.

What if he didn't?
Or what if he simply didn't have the money to afford the lawyer.

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Occidental College Part Deux May 5, 2017 11:40:01 GMT -5

Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 11:40:01 GMT -5

Police concurred after viewing campus video surveillance that showed the accuser right before and after her encounter with Doe, walking normally and talking to friends. Within 30 minutes of her encounter with Doe, she was seen holding two cups of liquid from the dining hall, and balancing on one foot and pushing the elevator door button with the other. Footage from just after the encounter showed the accuser with her arms around two other men, laughing and smiling. Again, she used her foot to kick the elevator door button.

Um... wait. What exactly is this supposed to prove?

That she was sober? That doesn't sound sober to me.

That she consented to sex? Um, yeah, no. It doesn't show that at all.

That she was a drunken hussy who was asking for it? Don't make me slap you.

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Occidental College Part Deux May 5, 2017 11:49:57 GMT -5

Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 11:49:57 GMT -5

Just to note, Vince -- I've personally passed out moments after people thought I was perfectly fine, and remembered nothing. Not everyone staggers around like a sitcom drunk, slurring their words.

A video showing what you say it shows does NOT demonstrate that she wasn't drunk. It just doesn't. And having her arms around two guys does not demonstrate consenting to sex. It just doesn't.

ETA:

I actually kicked ass at a game of trivial pursuit -- that I don't remember, at all. I was told about it the next day.

Last Edit: May 5, 2017 11:52:42 GMT -5 by Deleted

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Vince524
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Occidental College Part Deux May 5, 2017 12:05:16 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 5, 2017 12:05:16 GMT -5

May 5, 2017 11:49:57 GMT -5 @cassandraw said:

Just to note, Vince -- I've personally passed out moments after people thought I was perfectly fine, and remembered nothing. Not everyone staggers around like a sitcom drunk, slurring their words.

A video showing what you say it shows does NOT demonstrate that she wasn't drunk. It just doesn't. And having her arms around two guys does not demonstrate consenting to sex. It just doesn't.

ETA:

I actually kicked ass at a game of trivial pursuit -- that I don't remember, at all. I was told about it the next day.

No of course it doesn't.

But doesn't it at least suggest that she wasn't drunk enough for it to be rape because she was intoxicated, which is what she was charged with?

I had written out a post with this link kcjohnson.files.wordpress.com/2013/08/lynn-complaint.pdf but it got deleted and I don't have time to pick up the parts again that show it was not charged he forced her. Especially if I want to X out her name. She didn't call it rape, she called it sex.

Here's the policy:

Lynn’s Sexual and Gender-Based Misconduct Policy, Section 8.5.3, enacted
under Title IX, defines “Incapacitation” as follows:
“Incapacitation is a state where an individual cannot make an informed and
rational decision to engage in sexual activity because she/he lacks conscious
knowledge of the nature of the act (e.g., to understand the who, what, when,
where, why or how of the sexual interaction) and/or is physically helpless. An
individual is incapacitated, and therefore unable to give consent, if she/he is
asleep, unconscious or otherwise unaware that sexual activity is occurring.
Where alcohol or other drugs are involved, incapacitation is a state beyond
drunkenness or intoxication. The impact of alcohol and other drugs varies from
person to person; however, warning signs that a person may be approaching
incapacitation may include slurred speech, vomiting, unsteady gait, odor of

alcohol, combativeness or emotional volatility. Evaluating incapacitation requires
an assessment of how the consumption of alcohol and/or drugs affects an
individual’s: • Decision-making ability; • Awareness of consequences; • Ability
to make informed judgments; • Capacity to appreciate the nature and the quality
of the act; or • Level of consciousness. Evaluating incapacitation also requires an
assessment of whether a respondent should have been aware of the complainant’s
incapacitation based on objectivity and reasonably apparent indications of
impairment when viewed from the perspective of a sober, reasonable person in
the respondent’s position. An individual who engages in sexual activity with
someone the individual knows or reasonably should know is incapable of making
a rational, reasonable decision about whether to engage in sexual activity is in
violation of this Policy.” (italics supplied).

Also the lawsuit says the accuser was allowed a lawyer with 35 years of experience, and for them both to review the charges and evidence.

He was allowed only his mother as a silent observer and wasn't allowed to review the evidence against him.

He not being fall down drunk doesn't prove consent, but we're talking about if her level of intoxication = no consent in and of itself.

An allegation of force would change the entire thing.

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Deleted Deleted Member Posts: 0	Occidental College Part Deux May 5, 2017 12:06:56 GMT -5 Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 12:06:56 GMT -5 As I've already said, I don't agree with such procedures -- I think serious crimes belong in court. But I maintain the video doesn't prove anything.
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Vince524 Illuminati Eating bacon Posts: 2,009	Occidental College Part Deux May 5, 2017 12:20:08 GMT -5 Post by Vince524 on May 5, 2017 12:20:08 GMT -5 Okay, lets say I agree with you. It certainly doesn't prove she was too intoxicated to consent. And as a lawyer, do you have an issue with one side having representation and full access to the charges, and the other side not?
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Post by Optimus on May 4, 2017 15:04:36 GMT -5

Post by Christine on May 4, 2017 15:33:08 GMT -5

Post by robeiae on May 4, 2017 15:34:59 GMT -5

Post by Christine on May 4, 2017 15:38:13 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 4, 2017 15:46:56 GMT -5

Post by Christine on May 4, 2017 16:16:13 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 4, 2017 19:56:41 GMT -5

Post by Christine on May 4, 2017 20:45:32 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 4, 2017 21:02:34 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 5, 2017 11:31:04 GMT -5

Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 11:40:01 GMT -5

Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 11:49:57 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 5, 2017 12:05:16 GMT -5

Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 12:06:56 GMT -5

Post by Vince524 on May 5, 2017 12:20:08 GMT -5