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Post by Deleted on May 5, 2017 12:41:06 GMT -5
For pity's sake, Vince. I've said in Every. Single. Post. that I don't agree with the procedures.
The only thing I can say is that as awful as I think the procedures are, these still seem to me to be isolated cases. And I believe what they are is an overreaction to decades of cases where universities routinely pushed rape cases under the rug and discouraged (or shamed) women into not pursuing them. I personally know a woman to whom this happened. I know another who was date-raped by a frat boy she had a crush on and just kept it to herself because she was afraid of the shame -- she was one of my best friends in college. I personally have been manhandled by dates and non-dates who wanted sex I wasn't willing to give -- I am certain I would have been raped once if I hadn't happened to throw up on the guy and put him off the whole sex thing. Do you personally know any young men who were victims of procedures like the ones in this case? Do you know anyone who knows someone who knows someone this happened to?* I'm betting no. That doesn't make the procedures good. That doesn't make what happened to these young men right. My point is that cases like this are hardly an epidemic.
Our popular culture pushed the whole "take advantage of drunk girl" thing for decades. I've posted that horrible "Sixteen Candles" thing -- the fucking hero advocated raping an unconscious girl and no one even seemed to think this interfered with his being the hero. That was not so long ago. It still happens. Some men still have this attitude -- or the attitude that drunk and flirting equals "well, you had it coming." I'd say that's far more common than innocent men being persecuted for misunderstandings.
So these cases totally suck, yes, and yes, these young men deserve proper procedures. Absolutely. BUT --
That said, I understand why these procedures happened, and I still think they're aberrations. If you want me to start hauling up articles about drunk women being raped, I can do so -- including many where the young men got off with featherweight punishments or none at all, especially when the young man is an athlete/good student. These cases are overreactions to those shitty outcomes.
The best use of cases like this is to push, not just for justice for the young men (which yes, we should absolutely push for), and for fair procedures for everyone, but also for awareness in young people of BOTH SEXES that sex when drunk is a bad fucking idea and can have terrible consequences for everyone. Young men, as well as young women, should be hauling their drunk friends back when they're about to get a little action, and try to talk some sense into them.
The trouble is, universities shouldn't be "trying" cases like this at all. They shouldn't be shushing up rapes, and they shouldn't be convicting young men as rapists without proper procedures. That's for the courts, or should be. But I've said that. In. Every. Post.
*ETA:
I do in fact know of a case where a guy was falsely accused of rape -- and was punished basically by other students who believed the girl's story and made life unbearable on campus. He left the school for that reason. Actually, such investigation as there was eventually turned up that the girl's story didn't hold up, but that didn't help him. Fellow students had already found him him guilty So it's not a good example of the problem in this case -- it's a better example of why one should carefully consider evidence before condemning someone. Anyway. I also acknowledge false accusations happen, though I think they're relatively rare.
ETA:
I can also tell you, as a lawyer, that a lawyer would ask the questions about that video that I just asked, and make the same arguments.
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Post by Vince524 on May 5, 2017 15:14:34 GMT -5
Hate to disappoint you, but I agree pretty much with everything you said. I know this is, in great part, a reaction to colleges wanting to sweep things under the rug. In fact, some of the lawsuits use that fact because the college was named in a high profile rape case where they did nothing to help the accuser.
I think colleges should make it as easy as possible to report these things to the police.
But I also contend that these cases, which may be isolated or may not be, deserve attention.
I also believe that if a college like Brandis, Amherst, Occidental, Findlay and more have these sort of gross negligence in terms of how they handle their process, they probably have it in more than one case, even if only one person brought a lawsuit. I believe I read Cornell college has 6 cases against it now.
I think a better process can be created that can help victims and still protect accused.
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Post by Don on May 6, 2017 5:07:34 GMT -5
This stud-shaming attitude on college campuses turns my stomach the same way decades of slut-shaming has. Apparently relegating half of society to second-class status because of their dangly bits or lack thereof is a lesson that has yet to be learned.
The "Daddy Party" has been trying hard to keep women barefoot and pregnant; the "Mommy Party" now has an equally bigoted position to stand behind. And both parties are submerging individual identities behind collective politics.
I think I finally figured it out. This is obviously a plot by the Feminazis to take over the institutions of higher learning, continuing the trend toward more women than men getting four-year post-secondary educations and thereby ascending into positions of power.
Men, OTOH, fearful of having their lives or reputations destroyed in a witch hunt, will choose the more grounded, less esoteric environment of the trade schools, and thereby find themselves relegated to the manual trades where they belong.
It's the rise of The MatriarchyTM.
Not sure whether this post is sarcastic or not? Me, too.
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Post by Amadan on May 6, 2017 18:19:27 GMT -5
You say "to be fair to both the accuser and the accused," but I don't see you, nor have I ever seen you, posting about cases where rape victims have been unfairly treated. But fine, this is your particular "cause" for whatever reason. I see what you and Cass are saying, and yes, it does seem to be Vince's "thing" right now. In the same way that for Don, everything from the invention of fire to quantum physics can be explained by free markets or lack thereof, and for Cass, everything is about her nemesis, Angie. That said, I think you are being... uncharitable, with your underhanded insinuation that Vince is more concerned about a handful of guys being falsely accused of rape than the many women who are raped. Yes, false rape accusations are relatively uncommon compared to actual rapes, but it kind of goes without saying that everyone here is anti-rape and thinks rapists should be punished. Okay, really, I do understand Cass's point and yours - for decades it's been women who have to bear the full responsibility for avoiding rape, and suffering the consequences if they are raped, and now maybe there's a bit of understandable - if not schadenfreude, then "Well, now you know how it feels, boo hoo" -- with regard to guys who are being railroaded under the new paradigm? That said, I don't think it's a particularly noble sentiment to indulge in. "Don't rape, don't take advantage of drunk girls, no means no" is being drilled into young men's heads pretty thoroughly now, and that's a good thing. The anti-victim blaming campaign has made great strides (sometimes to excess, in my opinion). Rape still happens (and is always going to happen) and the rich, popular, and well-connected are still going to get away with it because they always get away with shit. But this isn't the 1950s or even the 1980s anymore. Maybe we aren't where we should be, but snide comments about whether and how far the pendulum has swung keep this at an adversarial level when it doesn't need to be. It's not as if we can have justice for rape victims or justice for men falsely accused of rape. An honest dedication to truth, justice, and being real about how humans behave would probably prevent a lot more rapes (and false rape accusations) than making it a political zero-sum game. So girls still need to get "the talk" about not going to parties full of horny young men and getting wasted, and we should add for boys "the talk" about not getting wasted yourself in situations where you might do things you will later find to have been ill-advised, as well as "the talk" about how if you have even the teeny-tiniest smidgin of doubt as to whether or not that girl is completely and totally on-board with getting it on, you should get off pronto. That being said, young people are still going to get drunk and get stupid, so some of these cases are still going to happen and some will go sideways worse than others.
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Post by Vince524 on May 6, 2017 19:56:13 GMT -5
I will admit that after reading about a few cases, I've looked into it more. I've always had strong feelings about sexual assault for many reasons, some very personal. I tend to actually be in the "believe the victim first" crowd by instinct. In high school, I once nearly decked someone (And I am not a violent person by nature) who a girl had claimed had raped her. I know some refused to believe her, because he was their friend, but I did. I had no proof besides her word. But as I've read these cases, I've also come to a conclusion. Colleges aren't interested in the truth. They're mostly interested in avoiding lawsuits. Colleges had spent $60 million to settle cases. www.thecollegefix.com/post/32098/There's been incredible federal pressure to find students guilty. www.thecollegefix.com/post/28072/Also, the basic process reeks of unfairness. www.mindingthecampus.org/2014/07/harvard-joins-the-ivy-leagues-race-to-the-bottom/A standard of evidence used is small claims courts, but without any of the safe guards one would get in court, including an impartial arbiter. Refusal to allow the accused to view the evidence, the witness lists, the testimony, the complaints or anything about what they're accused of. Either no or unequal representation. Sometimes the accusers bring attorneys who can participate, but the accused can't. The accuser can appeal a non responsible finding. www.thecollegefix.com/post/30674/Unexplained sanction on appeal Inability to cross examine a witness or the accuser. That's often reduced to allowing the accuser to submit questions in writing, which the college may or may not ask or demand answers. Also, it seems like there's a lot of push back when people want to discuss the unfairness. That if you want to talk about due process or what a student who is accused goes through, it's a part of rape culture. I started a thread of the suicide of a student who had his life plans destroyed by a college that wouldn't follow their own rules. I have no sympathy for a rapist, but I do for students accused when they very well may be innocent. It's possible to be outraged at both. www.washingtonexaminer.com/students-accused-of-sexual-assault-speak-about-their-own-trauma/article/2582103I saw a quote recently which I thought did a good job explaining things. “So as I understand it, Atticus Finch is now the bad guy in To Kill a Mockingbird,because he doubted a story about rape.”
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Post by Deleted on May 6, 2017 20:01:27 GMT -5
Colleges have always done a shitty job adjudicating such matters, IMO -- both when they shove them under the rug and when they hound someone who might not be guilty. Which is why they shouldn't be handling them.
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Post by Vince524 on May 6, 2017 20:33:31 GMT -5
Colleges have always done a shitty job adjudicating such matters, IMO -- both when they shove them under the rug and when they hound someone who might not be guilty. Which is why they shouldn't be handling them. Of that, you and I agree. I'm sure if an accused student has parents who are 'boosters' and the college doesn't want to, it won't believe the accuser. I feel colleges should make it as easy as possible for the accuser to press charges. If she does, the college case should be put on hold, with a no contact order, until there's a ruling. Even if the ruling is an acquittal, if there's substantial evidence that just didn't make it over the 'beyond a reasonable doubt' hurdle, they should be able to have it adjudicated fairly for a dismissal or suspension. When a student like Grant Neil can be found responsible when the victim says she wasn't raped, or 2 young men at Findlay college can be expelled without a hearing, when every witness said the accuser was lying (And they didn't get a hearing, and their names and faces were in an email that told everyone they'd been expelled for sexual assault.) Why should we believe these are isolated cases? www.insidehighered.com/news/2016/04/14/several-students-win-recent-lawsuits-against-colleges-punished-them-sexual-assault
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Post by Vince524 on May 6, 2017 21:33:31 GMT -5
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Post by Christine on May 7, 2017 9:43:55 GMT -5
I see what you and Cass are saying, and yes, it does seem to be Vince's "thing" right now. In the same way that for Don, everything from the invention of fire to quantum physics can be explained by free markets or lack thereof, and for Cass, everything is about her nemesis, Angie. That said, I think you are being... uncharitable, with your underhanded insinuation that Vince is more concerned about a handful of guys being falsely accused of rape than the many women who are raped. Yes, false rape accusations are relatively uncommon compared to actual rapes, but it kind of goes without saying that everyone here is anti-rape and thinks rapists should be punished. That's fair, since I was feeling uncharitable. And yes, it goes without saying that everyone here is anti-rape and thinks rapists should be punished. What doesn't go without saying is what constitutes rape, as well as what constitutes a really, really bad idea when it comes to sex, especially drunk sex. I think you expressed it well below (my bold), so thanks for that. I don't feel that way at all. I have three sons, as I mentioned, and it is quite easy for me as a mother to imagine what it would be like if one of them was falsely accused of rape. Or of anything for that matter. Being falsely accused is awful. I've gone through it personally. Being punished for things one has not done is also awful. I have gone through that personally, too. That said, I think there is a certain mindset out there that will take a handful of false accusations as "evidence" that everyone is overemphasizing rape culture; everyone is losing their collective shit over a few rapes and now poor innocent men are suffering. That sentiment makes me feel extremely uncharitable. Whatever parents tell their children to try to keep them safe is fine and understandable. But I don't think "we" as a society need to promote giving girls "the talk" about going to parties full of horny young men and getting wasted. I think the narrative needs to change in this regard, and I think that is what some of these schools are trying to do. Just because you're horny, just because you're drunk, doesn't mean girls should have to "watch out" for you. And there are millions of good men who already absolutely embrace this concept and are zero threat to women around them. That to me is evidence, plain and simple, that men are capable of behaving this way. The rest of them just need to be taught that it's their responsibility, not the woman's, to not rape. As long as the woman has some sort of socially-condoned responsibility in this regard, we are mucking up the narrative. The false narrative is evident in many of Vince's posts, starting with, "I think she was upset that she lost her virginity like that," to "she didn't act drunk" to "she had her arms around two guys."
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Post by Optimus on May 7, 2017 10:07:34 GMT -5
Whatever parents tell their children to try to keep them safe is fine and understandable. But I don't think "we" as a society need to promote giving girls "the talk" about going to parties full of horny young men and getting wasted. I think the narrative needs to change in this regard, and I think that is what some of these schools are trying to do. Just because you're horny, just because you're drunk, doesn't mean girls should have to "watch out" for you. And there are millions of good men who already absolutely embrace this concept and are zero threat to women around them. That to me is evidence, plain and simple, that men are capable of behaving this way. The rest of them just need to be taught that it's their responsibility, not the woman's, to not rape. As long as the woman has some sort of socially-condoned responsibility in this regard, we are mucking up the narrative. The false narrative is evident in many of Vince's posts, starting with, "I think she was upset that she lost her virginity like that," to "she didn't act drunk" to "she had her arms around two guys." I strongly disagree with this because it defies both reality and common sense. I'm not sure why the narrative regarding teaching girls to look out for themselves shifted from simple common sense to "it's victim blaming!" but that's a very dangerous and naive position to take. I 100% agree that only a small minority of men (and women, let's not forget) rape and that the vast majority are good people who know better. However, I agree with Amandan that we should be talking openly and honestly with both boys and girls in order to prepare them for the real world. Giving that kind of "don't do that" talk to only the boys, and basically saying "girls shouldn't have to be mindful of their surroundings, we should just teach the boys to not rape" does not prepare girls for the real world. It's equivalent to saying, "We shouldn't encourage store owners to invest in security systems. We should just teach the criminals not to rob." Or, "We shouldn't teach children not to get in vans with strangers. We should just teach kidnappers not to kidnap." Or, "We shouldn't caution people to avoid high crime, high shooting areas. We should just teach killers not to kill." There is absolutely nothing wrong with teaching girls to "hope for the best but be prepared for the worst" (in addition to having a talk with the boys). Hell, we should teach everyone to always mind their surroundings (like Ra's al Ghul did with Bruce Wayne). We need to teach them that, no matter what they do/say/wear/think/go etc., there are bad people out there who want to do other people harm. That is in no way "victim blaming" and, to me, it is ludicrous if not dangerous to interpret it as such. It is an intelligent, common sense approach to the real world and not the fantasy world we wish it would be.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 10:22:43 GMT -5
I think we should teach both messages.
There will always be predators out there. It will always be dangerous to get dead drunk, to walk in dark alleys at night, to place yourself at the mercy of strangers. We should not stop telling our girls to be careful out there.
But we need to do a better job educating our boys that no means no, that drunk sex is a bad idea for a myriad of reasons, and yes, that they need to be careful out there, too.
Educating our boys might ensure that good, well-meaning boys understand where the line is and why they should not cross it. But there will always be people out there who know damn well their behaviour is wrong and hurts someone, and just don't give a shit. Girls and boys both need to know that and be prepared accordingly.
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Post by Christine on May 7, 2017 10:23:11 GMT -5
The difference is that when someone is robbed, they are not partly culpable in the crime because they didn't have an alarm system. The difference is that there's no question of whether a robbery occurred or didn't, if someone doesn't have an alarm system. The difference is that store owners, children, and "people" aren't taught different things based on their gender.
It's more like society having the opinion that black people need to not make any sudden moves around cops. I have a black son, and I have expressly taught him this very thing on more than one occasion. But, if a large part of society's response to black people getting shot is that they should be more careful around cops, I have a problem with that.
Again, I didn't say "don't teach." It's not that women don't need to be careful. I'm talking about social perceptions.
If that's too difficult to comprehend, I don't know what else to say.
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Post by Deleted on May 7, 2017 10:33:42 GMT -5
The difference is that when someone is robbed, they are not partly culpable in the crime because they didn't have an alarm system. The difference is that there's no question of whether a robbery occurred or didn't, if someone doesn't have an alarm system. The difference is that store owners, children, and "people" aren't taught different things based on their gender. It's more like teaching black people to not make any sudden moves around cops. I have a black son, and I have expressly told him this very thing on more than one occasion. But, if a large part of society's response to black people getting shot is that they should be more careful around cops, I have a problem with that. Again, I didn't say "don't teach." It's not that women don't need to be careful. I'm talking about social perceptions. If that's too difficult to comprehend, I don't know what else to say. I don't disagree. That's kind of why I reacted the way I did about the video showing the girl laughing with her arms around two boys. The blame belongs on the attacker, always. No one deserves to be a victim, ever. But that doesn't mean not warning your kids that it's an ugly world out there sometimes, and alas, certain behavior that isn't in itself wrong could put them more at risk.
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Post by Amadan on May 7, 2017 10:35:52 GMT -5
Whatever parents tell their children to try to keep them safe is fine and understandable. But I don't think "we" as a society need to promote giving girls "the talk" about going to parties full of horny young men and getting wasted. I think the narrative needs to change in this regard, and I think that is what some of these schools are trying to do. Just because you're horny, just because you're drunk, doesn't mean girls should have to "watch out" for you. And there are millions of good men who already absolutely embrace this concept and are zero threat to women around them. That to me is evidence, plain and simple, that men are capable of behaving this way. The rest of them just need to be taught that it's their responsibility, not the woman's, to not rape. As long as the woman has some sort of socially-condoned responsibility in this regard, we are mucking up the narrative. The false narrative is evident in many of Vince's posts, starting with, "I think she was upset that she lost her virginity like that," to "she didn't act drunk" to "she had her arms around two guys." What Opty said. The millions of good men who don't rape aren't the problem. There will always be some bad actors, so "teach men not to rape" is stupid. I don't mean it's stupid to teach boys early to be respectful and mindful of consent. I mean that predators exist (and so do men - and a few women - who are not normally predatory but whose ethics are shaky enough that a few drinks can unmoor their moral inhibitions) and so you have to be mindful of hazards. This is basic common sense and applies to every situation in the world in which bad things can happen. Know the dangers and act accordingly. This is not "victim blaming." Victim blaming is telling a girl who got drunk and got raped "Well, you deserved it" (or worse, letting the rapist off because "what did she expect, getting drunk at that party"?) That's obviously terrible, and yes, it used to happen. But now we've shifted to the attitude - which you express above - that even telling girls that getting drunk at parties full of men on the prowl is maybe a bad idea is "victim blaming" because "Men should just know better." Yes, men should know better. And murders and burglars and con-men and other assorted criminals should know better too. Yet they are still out there and no number of "education campaigns" is just going to teach everyone not to do bad things. I think your attitude is dangerous. You want girls to be told that they should be perfectly safe and entitled to get drunk* in dangerous circumstances because it's the responsibility of those around them not to take advantage of them. I think this is actually causing more of both phenomena being discussed above - women getting raped, and men being accused of rape - sometimes unfairly - because where drugs and alcohol is involved and no one is taking responsibility but assuming the burden of responsibility should be entirely on someone else, ambiguous situations will happen. * Hell, even without drinking, I think a girl going to, say, a frat party full of drunken men, would be foolish not to have a back-up, at least one friend who is also not drunk and can watch out for her possibly being pushed into a hazardous situation. This is also not victim blaming, it is situational awareness which is a basic component of any self-defense class - it's the first thing we teach, because recognizing how to avoid bad situations in the first place is far more effective than learning how to kick someone in the balls once things have already started to go sideways. But according to you, this is "victim blaming" because women shouldn't need to be on guard (or, alternatively, "We already know that, we're taught that all our lives"). Except that clearly a lot of people don't know that, or at least at college, this new thing where it's wrong and victim-blamey to tell people not to do stupid things seems to be encouraging people - mostly girls - to do stupid things.
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Post by Christine on May 7, 2017 10:49:12 GMT -5
I don't disagree. That's kind of why I reacted the way I did about the video showing the girl laughing with her arms around two boys. The blame belongs on the attacker, always. No one deserves to be a victim, ever. But that doesn't mean not warning your kids that it's an ugly world out there sometimes, and alas, certain behavior that isn't in itself wrong could put them more at risk. The saddest part is that college parties shouldn't be like dark alleys. They should be relatively safe places to hang out. (derail) I cried for 30 minutes after reading about this yesterday. It's really, really difficult for me to attribute this to mere stupidity and/or extreme drunkenness on the part of the fraternity members.
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