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Post by robeiae on May 24, 2017 10:02:19 GMT -5
Maybe I'm weird, but I couldn't give two shits--not even one--what monuments or historical sites a foreign head of state might choose to visit or not visit when they came to the U.S.
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Post by michaelw on May 24, 2017 10:19:34 GMT -5
If I'd been advising Trump, I'd have urged him to visit the Wall, the Holocaust Museum, and Masada, and give each a respectful amount of time. Yeah, that's interesting. Apparently Trump is the first sitting president to ever visit the Wall. I think the symbolism is probably a big part of the reason why no previous presidents had visited. There was always a fear that it would be seen by the Israeli right as sending a hard message that the Wall was part of Israel. And that it would be seen by the Israeli left, and by the Palestinians, in the same way, and thus would cause too much trouble all around. Might be too early to say what it's going to mean for Trump, though. He seems not to have a very clearly delineated Israel policy, as far as I can tell.
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Post by celawson on May 24, 2017 10:20:23 GMT -5
Trump apologist here again This trip's itinerary is crazy busy. I'm going to commend him for embarking on such an ambitious trip so early in his presidency, and for the efforts he is making to connect with foreign leaders. I'm sure he will be back to Israel at some point to see more sights, but the important thing is the effort to go and to extend our hand of friendship to Israel after Obama's slights and tension with Bibi.
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Post by michaelw on May 24, 2017 10:21:03 GMT -5
Maybe I'm weird, but I couldn't give two shits--not even one--what monuments or historical sites a foreign head of state might choose to visit or not visit when they came to the U.S. Yeah, I'm the same way. Unless they skip the Pro Rodeo Hall of Fame. That's just a slap in the face, IMO.
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Post by michaelw on May 24, 2017 10:26:16 GMT -5
Trump apologist here again This trip's itinerary is crazy busy. I'm going to commend him for embarking on such an ambitious trip so early in his presidency, and for the efforts he is making to connect with foreign leaders. I'm sure he will be back to Israel at some point to see more sights, but the important thing is the effort to go and to extend our hand of friendship to Israel after Obama's slights and tension with Bibi. And that intel leak to the Russians was a great start, amirite?
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 10:46:04 GMT -5
Maybe I'm weird, but I couldn't give two shits--not even one--what monuments or historical sites a foreign head of state might choose to visit or not visit when they came to the U.S. I don't, either, at all. But I don't think that's necessarily representative of the view of every country/people. In fact, I'm sure it is not. Israel didn't exist as a state for a couple thousand years. It only exists now because the Nazis massacred millions of Jews. Now Israel exists surrounded by hostile states that, as you have noted in the past, want to push it into the sea. (ETA -- really, is there another country with a history even remotely comparable? No. Israel's ancient history has a significance to its current history that is quite unlike that of other nations. For one thing, its entire existence at that particular place is justified by its ancient history there -- and its reinstatement by a slaughter that evokes the ancient one at Masada. Powerful national symbolism? Ye gods and little fishes, yes!) I think that gives symbols like Masada an importance to Israelis that we have no equivalent to -- not even close. (As you know, I absolutely do NOT condone Israel taking over the West Bank, stepping on Palestinians, etc. But I DO think that we should support them staunchly in every legitimate way. And for me, there is a strong importance in certain symbolic gestures. By the way, if I recall correctly, Obama skipped the Western wall on a state visit (though he'd gone as a candidate). I think that was a faux pas, too (and so, if I recall, did Israelis). I'd make the time. I really would.) Come to think of it, I actually do think there is one symbolic stop visiting foreign leaders should make when visiting New York for the first time -- the 9/11 memorial. It's not exactly equivalent to Masada or the Holocaust museum, but I do think visiting it has a certain symbolic relevance, more so than the Alamo. Recent enemies slaughtering 3000 innocent civilians...yeah, visiting that memorial sends a message. If they don't make it to NYC, fine. But if they do, they should make a pit stop. The U.S. is a big country. You can't get in all our important sites in one trip. Israel is tiny -- you can do the whole country in day trips from Jerusalem, if you want. ETA: And I'm not saying "oh, every time they meet with our president they need to visit the 9/11 memorial." I'm saying if they include NYC on a state "hi, I'm the new leader of Whateveristan" trip, and they go to the Empire State building but skip the 9/11 memorial or give it short shrift, I'd find it jarring. ETA: No huge deal, like I said. But I wish he'd gone.
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Post by michaelw on May 24, 2017 11:05:25 GMT -5
Recent enemies slaughtering 3000 innocent civilians...yeah, visiting that memorial sends a message. Maybe Trump could invite the Saudis to visit. (Actually, if he did that, I would almost gain some respect for him.)
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 11:13:01 GMT -5
Recent enemies slaughtering 3000 innocent civilians...yeah, visiting that memorial sends a message. Maybe Trump could invite the Saudis to visit. (Actually, if he did that, I would almost gain some respect for him.) Agree. And yes -- it would be incredibly powerful symbolism if Saudi leaders visited that memorial.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 15:31:05 GMT -5
Heh. With regard to the Holocaust museum book thing, I can't help but ask:
If a new leader of one of our allies -- let's say Macron -- came on his first state visit to the U.S., and in the 9/11 memorial's book wrote:
...I for one would be thinking "what the ever living holy fuck...he wrote THAT at a place where thousands of innocent civilians were slaughtered?"
Multiply that to consider the place in question is memorializing the brutal and appalling deliberate genocide of millions.
So, yeah, I stand by my reaction to Trump's inscription in the book. Indeed, I double down on it. It bugs me more as I think of it.
(I must add -- if Obama wrote it, I've no doubt it would be cited as proof he didn't give a hoot about Israel. Whereas here, I just think it's a revealing glimpse into Trump's self-absorption.)
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 15:49:27 GMT -5
If I'd been advising Trump, I'd have urged him to visit the Wall, the Holocaust Museum, and Masada, and give each a respectful amount of time. Yeah, that's interesting. Apparently Trump is the first sitting president to ever visit the Wall. I think the symbolism is probably a big part of the reason why no previous presidents had visited. There was always a fear that it would be seen by the Israeli right as sending a hard message that the Wall was part of Israel. And that it would be seen by the Israeli left, and by the Palestinians, in the same way, and thus would cause too much trouble all around. Might be too early to say what it's going to mean for Trump, though. He seems not to have a very clearly delineated Israel policy, as far as I can tell. I missed this post somehow. That's a good point about the Wall, and one I didn't contemplate. It does sweep jn a delicate issue, especially just now. I had thought Bush visited it, but I guess it was not while he was president. And I knew Obama went before he was president. The conflict in its importance to both the Israelis and Palestinians -- yeah, it could create an unintended message. (That said, Trump went to the wall) Masada, as far as I know, has no such delicate issues attached. Just a cable car ride.
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Post by Amadan on May 24, 2017 15:56:54 GMT -5
Sorry, Christine, even Miss Manners disagrees with you. I'll agree that making a huge deal out of it is politically-motivated. But U.S. citizens, and especially U.S. Presidents, should never bow or show subservience (and yes, that is what a bow or bent knee symbolically represents) to foreign royalty. There are protocols for showing courtesy and respect that don't involve showing a subject's deference to a royal.
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Post by Amadan on May 24, 2017 15:57:51 GMT -5
Gah, I am way behind and I always miss when there is another page or two of posts in a thread on this board.
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Post by Deleted on May 24, 2017 16:26:28 GMT -5
Sorry, Christine, even Miss Manners disagrees with you. I'll agree that making a huge deal out of it is politically-motivated. But U.S. citizens, and especially U.S. Presidents, should never bow or show subservience (and yes, that is what a bow or bent knee symbolically represents) to foreign royalty. There are protocols for showing courtesy and respect that don't involve showing a subject's deference to a royal. I will add that I do prefer presidents to follow such protocols, and agree with Rob that new presidents and their entourage should get some instruction in it, if need be, along with some instruction on customs and history in nations they are visiting, to avoid sending unintended signals or creating bad opty-cs. So. Obama shouldn't have bowed. I agree. Though I do think the bow thing was blown out of proportion as evidence that Obama WAS subservient. With that, I don't agree.
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Post by Christine on May 24, 2017 16:30:44 GMT -5
Sorry, Christine, even Miss Manners disagrees with you. I'll agree that making a huge deal out of it is politically-motivated. But U.S. citizens, and especially U.S. Presidents, should never bow or show subservience (and yes, that is what a bow or bent knee symbolically represents) to foreign royalty. There are protocols for showing courtesy and respect that don't involve showing a subject's deference to a royal. I get that Obama's bow created a negative reaction. If that's the criticism, as rob noted - that it created a negative reaction, I can't disagree with that fact. But I disagree with the negative reaction itself. Here's a Snopes article that shows the clip of Obama bowing. BFD, imo. I thought it was respectful, culturally speaking, but not over the top; it was very quick as well. It's not like he prostrated himself and waited for permission to rise or some shit. I didn't see it as Obama showing weakness, which I think was the main problem for a lot of people. Either that, or any stick to beat Obama.
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Post by Christine on May 24, 2017 16:45:54 GMT -5
Heh. With regard to the Holocaust museum book thing, I can't help but ask: If a new leader of one of our allies -- let's say Macron -- came on his first state visit to the U.S., and in the 9/11 memorial's book wrote: ...I for one would be thinking "what the ever living holy fuck...he wrote THAT at a place where thousands of innocent civilians were slaughtered?" Multiply that to consider the place in question is memorializing the brutal and appalling deliberate genocide of millions. So, yeah, I stand by my reaction to Trump's inscription in the book. Indeed, I double down on it. It bugs me more as I think of it. (I must add -- if Obama wrote it, I've no doubt it would be cited as proof he didn't give a hoot about Israel. Whereas here, I just think it's a revealing glimpse into Trump's self-absorption.) Apropos of nothing, I feel compelled to point out that Trump abuses exclamation points! I hate that! That is all!
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