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Post by robeiae on Jun 29, 2017 14:21:59 GMT -5
It was a purely emotional reaction on my part to a Trump tweet that I felt was particularly awful, on so many levels. I did literally gasp in horror when I saw it, had a yuuuuge sweep of empathy for Mika, and the result was "what the fuck is wrong with you?" Which, by the way, is something I might also say to a friend or family member who did something I found horrifying. Indeed I have done so on more than one occasion when someone did something I thought was cruel and wrong. Why did I find his tweet so awful? Taking aside that it's just plain nasty and unpresidential, there is a level of particular cruelty and vindictiveness that took my breath away. Look, I agree that Trump's tweet was way beyond the pale, specifically because it was about such a personal thing. Calling it unpresidential is almost underselling it imo, insofar as I would have a problem with someone who was just an every day citizen saying the same thing on twitter about someone else who was just an every day citizen. It's intentional cruelty for the sake of cruelty (with maybe the hope of getting a laugh from people with a similar lack of decency). What else is there to say from a critical standpoint, though? Trump consistently presents himself as a horrible person. He's done that for a long, long time. People who really support him have to know this. The fact that they excuse it in one manner or another is their problem. Now true, Trump is a problem in this respect (and many others, imo) for everyone. The question is what is the solution? Does it even have a solution? I think one might argue that there is no solution, thus allowing that tit for tat responses are appropriate. But I would argue--again--that this is essentially feeding a troll, something we all know rarely--if ever--has a positive result. Beyond that, I would also note that Trump has built up this nasty nature in part as a response to a significant amount of mockery he has endured and continues to endure since well before he opted to run for office. Sure, he freely insults people, but the mockery comes from beyond just those who he's insulted, right? Who hasn't made a joke about Trump's hair? It would be impossible to count the number of such jokes on social media, let alone on the internet as a whole. And the mockery goes well past that. Well past. I'm not trying to excuse Trump's behavior, though. He opted for the public limelight and all that goes with it a long time ago. He's obviously way too defensive about such things and I think not suited for public office (shocking, I know). But here he is. And imo, part of the "why" to that involves his mastery of social media and the way he engenders outrage and less-than-polite behavior from those who criticize him and those who defend him. It's all terribly ugly and, I think, very much a new low point for American politics and the American public in general. So again, the solution? More of the same or try to break the cycle. Full disclosure: I still follow Trump on twitter, but I think I'm gonna stop.
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Post by michaelw on Jun 29, 2017 17:55:06 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Jun 29, 2017 18:37:43 GMT -5
Lol, that's pretty bad, too.
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Post by Christine on Jun 29, 2017 19:36:34 GMT -5
Look, I agree that Trump's tweet was way beyond the pale, specifically because it was about such a personal thing. Calling it unpresidential is almost underselling it imo, insofar as I would have a problem with someone who was just an every day citizen saying the same thing on twitter about someone else who was just an every day citizen. It's intentional cruelty for the sake of cruelty (with maybe the hope of getting a laugh from people with a similar lack of decency). What else is there to say from a critical standpoint, though? Trump consistently presents himself as a horrible person. He's done that for a long, long time. People who really support him have to know this. The fact that they excuse it in one manner or another is their problem. No, it's all of our problem. That half the voting populace voted for Trump is our problem. That they continue to support him, no matter what, is our problem. What else is there to say from a critical standpoint, you ask? The President of the United States is a fucking troll. Being a horrible person is A-OK now. It's the normalization of horrible behavior that has troubled me from the beginning. There was the hope that campaign rhetoric was sort of outside the bounds of what should be considered normal. Campaigns have been awful for a while. But now, six months in? It's despairing. This is not normal, and yet... it is, because the President of the United States is, through his unchecked behavior, making it normal. People should continue to push back on him, including "What the fuck is wrong with you?" comments. Because, seriously, what else can you can say to a 70-year-old man who's more interested in his own ratings than running the country. There is no "solution," imo. Trump cannot be fixed. He won't stop acting like a fucking toddler if everyone starts being nice to him, taking "the high road." He'll just find some other way to act out. This whole fiasco needs to be a sad, sorry, miserable four-year blip in history. That's what I'm hoping for.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 29, 2017 19:54:14 GMT -5
derail/
As a general shout out to the couple of you who know my real name and follow me on Twitter: I prefer to remain CassandraW here and for various reasons (mostly business) I do not wish to mix my alias with my real name. No harm done in this case, since Rob didn't use a link. But just a reminder to those of you who do know my real name -- I'd prefer not to use it here. Please don't, and please don't link to my tweets. Thank you.
It's not that I'm ashamed of anything I say in either place or even that I say anything different. But I do let my hair down more here, as a rule -- I talk as I would amidst a group of my real-life friends. On Twitter, I'm well aware that clients and such can google me, so I tend to be more restrained in what I say and the way I phrase things -- I talk as I might in the office. I'm a lawyer, not a political commentator. Professional for me, alas, means exercising some restraint.
Indeed, that's the main reason I deleted the post Rob mentioned. I meant it and then some, and I lost my temper -- but then remembered where I was.
Anyway, I would be grateful if you'd preserve my incognito.
I will only add -- taking aside all the reasons I've already given for why my tweet is not in the same class as Trump's, I really don't think my tweet was giving Trump tit-for-tat. It wasn't polite, no. But "tit for tat" would be "You moron asshole, you should have some plastic surgery to fix that horrible ass of yours and you should get rid of your hideous hairplugs." (Even then it would not be the same -- I would not be the freaking POTUS attacking a critic. I'd be one of millions of random people on the internet.) What I did was not so much an insult or an attack as it was as a cry of protest about what he said. Take out my profanity (which was an emotional disgusted reaction to what I felt was a beyond-the-pale post), and you have "what is wrong with you?" I submit that's actually not an unfair question, under the circumstances.
/end derail
Have a nice weekend, all. I really am going to try to take a break from the internet for a few days (we'll see how I do -- I'm a bit of an addict, as you've no doubt gathered). My birthday is tomorrow, and then there is the weekend. It feels like a good time to detox from all the ugliness in the world, to the extent possible. It is really getting to me. I need to recharge before I can return with my hatchet.
ETA:
Also, what Christine said.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 29, 2017 20:07:01 GMT -5
No, it's all of our problem. That half the voting populace voted for Trump is our problem. That they continue to support him, no matter what, is our problem. What else is there to say from a critical standpoint, you ask? The President of the United States is a fucking troll. Being a horrible person is A-OK now. It's the normalization of horrible behavior that has troubled me from the beginning. There was the hope that campaign rhetoric was sort of outside the bounds of what should be considered normal. Campaigns have been awful for a while. But now, six months in? It's despairing. This is not normal, and yet... it is, because the President of the United States is, through his unchecked behavior, making it normal. People should continue to push back on him, including "What the fuck is wrong with you?" comments. Because, seriously, what else can you can say to a 70-year-old man who's more interested in his own ratings than running the country. There is no "solution," imo. Trump cannot be fixed. He won't stop acting like a fucking toddler if everyone starts being nice to him, taking "the high road." He'll just find some other way to act out. This whole fiasco needs to be a sad, sorry, miserable four-year blip in history. That's what I'm hoping for. Just FYI, my offered solution is not about fixing Trump. I agree, he can't be fixed. It's about dealing with him, about lessening his power to garner attention and get under people's skin. Playing his game, fixating on the shit he tweets, trying to fire back at him with insults and the like, is just giving him what he wants. It is--again--akin to feeding the troll. That said, I agree with you about the normalizing of bad behavior. But imo, the problem here is that while Trump may be the poster child of this, he's not the root cause at all.
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Post by Christine on Jun 29, 2017 20:32:48 GMT -5
He's the President. What are we supposed to do, ignore him? Okay, I could probably do that. But just, technically, I think "feeding the troll" means attempting to engage in a reasoned debate. It's pointless. I don't view condemning trolls as feeding them. The more condemnation, the better. Community-wide condemnation. That's how trolls go out of style. Maybe even get banned.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 30, 2017 8:19:40 GMT -5
Okay, so apparently this was what Mika said that set off Trump: Hmmm. Not exactly classy on her part, but then she's a talking head doing her job. But then, they're all (the talking heads) part of the problem, too.
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Post by Amadan on Jun 30, 2017 10:34:11 GMT -5
Okay, so apparently this was what Mika said that set off Trump: Hmmm. Not exactly classy on her part, but then she's a talking head doing her job. But then, they're all (the talking heads) part of the problem, too. Again, your equivocation is bullshit. Yes, she's a talking head. Whether it's talk radio or SNL, that's what talking heads do - they say things that are sometimes rude, outrageous, even borderline slanderous, about public figures. You can disapprove, be disgusted, call them out, wag a finger and tut-tut at them, but they are exercising their free speech and also filling a role society has decided, for better or for worse, it wants to be filled. They are the modern court jesters. Sometimes their "speaking truth to power" is all pretension and bullshit, and you can fairly accuse a lot of them of being no better than the anonymous poo-flinging monkeys on Twitter, but they do what they do and that is their role. The POTUS... has a different role. And daintily sniffing "Oh, it's so very disagreeable that people don't conduct themselves in an appropriate manner when addressing the President on Twitter" when the President is acting like a poo-flinging monkey is missing the continent for the trees. It's like if a kid walked up and kicked an adult in the shins, and the adult proceeded to punch the child in the face, and you said "Gosh, why are these kids so undisciplined and disrespectful nowadays?"
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Post by robeiae on Jun 30, 2017 11:22:30 GMT -5
Disagree. I can freely find fault with both the kid and the adult in your example, just as I can freely find fault with both Trump and those who engage in behavior similar to his.
But yes, talking heads can say what they want to say. I never suggested otherwise. Indeed, I specifically allowed that this was a part of what they do, a part of their job.
So...Trump is (or at least acts like)--imo and that of many, many others--a grifter, a loud-mouthed jerk, a narcissist, an ego-maniac, a misogynist, an asshole. And nowhere is that more apparent than on his twitter account, where he exhibits no class, no manners, often no honesty whatsoever. And the POTUS should't do this, even if he or she isn't breaking any laws. When Trump does it, he's damaging the office he holds, which is held supposedly in trust for all of us, for the citizenry as a whole. Clear? Is that not enough condemnation? Am I cutting Trump too much slack? Am I excusing his behavior, somehow?
Nonetheless, I disapprove of nasty comments like Mika's--who has a platform--being directed at the POTUS, regardless of who holds the office. They were just as inappropriate and un-helpful when talking heads on the right directed them at Obama (or Michele, like that douchebag on Fox who said she needed to "drop a few"). For that matter, the belittlement from talking heads of GWB was also inappropriate and un-helpful.
Am I suggesting there "oughta be a law" or the like? No I'm not. People are free to say this stuff. And when they do, they reveal who they really are, more often than not (as Trump has been doing for decades, imo).
But if there's some sort of civility problem--which, btw, is something talking heads and politicians like to expound on--in American politics right now, it's not all on Trump imo. He's the poster child, no doubt. Indeed, I think there's an argument to be made that the general acceptance of nasty comments, dog-piling, and insult-hurling on social media by so many people has allowed Trump to do what he does, even as POTUS.
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 11:36:40 GMT -5
Again, I agree with Amadan. I saw my own "What the fuck is wrong with you?" to be rather in the spirit of this rebuke... thecollinegate.boards.net/post/7260/quote/395Trump was behaving incredibly badly. I called him out on it. Having given it some serious thought overnight, I reject, thoroughly, any implication that my behavior was in some way encouraging his -- any more than CG Admin's was encouraging the bickering and personal comments in that thread. I will also note -- as Amadan notes, there have been some version of talking heads, writers, and entertainers doing what Mika did (and for that matter, what Kathy Griffin did) for about as long as there have been politics. It comes with the game, particularly with a society that values a free press. It is part of the criticism levied on the ruling class, that comes with fame and power. Having a president who out-vulgars and out-slanders such people? Yeah, that should not come with the game. Btw, Mika denies she had a face lift.
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Post by Amadan on Jun 30, 2017 11:39:26 GMT -5
Disagree. I can freely find fault with both the kid and the adult in your example, just as I can freely find fault with both Trump and those who engage in behavior similar to his. Obviously one disapproves of kids kicking adults in the shins. But if the adult retaliates by punching the kid in the face, and your response is to sigh and shake your head at how badly both of them were behaving, you are really missing the point. Moreover, your tut-tutting at Mika is ridiculous. Oh noes, a talk show host said mean things about the President! How did our national discourse ever fall to this level?
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Post by Deleted on Jun 30, 2017 11:51:12 GMT -5
I also am not so sure, upon reflection, that bad behavior among the public and press is on the increase so much as it is the case that we are far more aware of it. Not so long ago, you might have some ugly isolated mobs behaving badly, or people anonymously writing foul graffiti. Now we have twitter, facebook and comment sections where people can congregate, anonymously or not, and behave badly where all of us can see them. And as far as talking heads and the like...again, it is nothing new. www.currentaffairs.org/2016/05/the-necessity-of-political-vulgarityAgain, the big difference I see between now and Lincoln's time is that now we have a freaking president riding the crest of bad behavior and returning it tenfold. Picture for one minute any previous president behaving this way.
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Post by robeiae on Jun 30, 2017 12:00:38 GMT -5
Obviously one disapproves of kids kicking adults in the shins. But if the adult retaliates by punching the kid in the face, and your response is to sigh and shake your head at how badly both of them were behaving, you are really missing the point. That's not my response, so I guess it's you who are missing the point Lol, that's not what I said at all. I didn't "tut-tut" her. She made a nasty, personal comment by implying Trump has a small penis. She knew exactly what she was saying, no? And fair enough, a good chunk of her audience probably thought it was an hilarious comment, one that Trump richly deserved. But it is what it is.
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Post by nighttimer on Jun 30, 2017 12:11:20 GMT -5
Whenever the subject of "civility" comes up, it's invariably eye-rolling time. It's one thing for Trump to beef with Scarborough and Brezezinski when he was a candidate for the presidency. They couldn't stop kissing each others asses then. Now they can't stand each other and while Mika and Joe have their podium to shoot at Trump, he has an even bigger podium to shoot back. The problem is if you accept Trump as president, you must also accept he can't win this kind of fight and has no reason to try to. Excepting the fact Trump is a petty little asshole and never, ever allows a punch to his oversized ego go by without retaliating. What Trump doesn't get is by going scorched earth on two talking heads, he only diminishes himself and diminishes the presidency as well. This was supposed to be where Trump tried to lasso wandering Republican senators back into the corral to support the Senate's attempt to pass Mitch McConnell's "health" care/tax cut for the wealthy scheme. When he summoned Republican Senators to the White House, Trump made sure holdouts Lisa Murkowski and Susan Collins were well within camera range for the obligatory photo-op. Then a day later, Trump gets diarrhea of the mouth and spews word vomit all over Mika Brzezinski's face. How are Murkowski and Collins now supposed to defend Trump and support one of his major priorities? More importantly, what does Trump have to say about their looks? I feel zero compunction to step up my civility game until Trump steps up his and he never will.
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