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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2017 21:50:40 GMT -5
I'm a petite woman who looks sweeter and younger than I am. Trust me that professional attire makes a world of difference in how people treat me. I can be as capable as all-get out, but me in cut-off shorts, flip flops and a tank top will not make that impression. This is simply a fact.
Fashions change, but we've had fashion for millennia, with different attire for different occasions. Things are actually way more relaxed than they used to be. I don't see the oppression, particularly.
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Post by Christine on Jul 15, 2017 22:04:09 GMT -5
I guess I don't really get your point, then. The reason that "casual Fridays" and other such things exist in the first place is because some businesses have already tested them and made the determination that they make a meaningful difference for those businesses. If "casual Fridays" didn't already exist, then we wouldn't be able to have a conversation about them. My point is that, according to the study linked in the OP article, wearing professional attire increases productivity, attention, etc. If this is true, then casual Friday attire would presumably decrease productivity. If that were true, businesses wouldn't be having casual Friday attire. And I am saying that wearing a suit does not indicate someone is not an asshole, or not incompetent. I am saying that perception, based on attire, is bullshit. Seriously, all of you, how many assholes or incompetent fucks do you know or have you known in your professional careers who dressed professionally? It's not about the clothes. Clothes are meaningless. Wearing professional attire simply means that you are following the culture of wearing professional attire. That's ALL it means. If you perceive someone to be more professional, or more competent, based upon their attire, you are perceiving wrongly. I like nice clothes. I like Cass's retro pics. I like a guy (or gal) in a suit. But it's meaningless in the determination of competency or professionalism, and we should as a society stop pretending that professional attire means something more than just a person wearing a nice suit. JMO. ETA: Also, we should all wear what we want to, what we feel good wearing. I'm not proposing instituting shorts and flip flops as a mandate or anything.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2017 22:14:08 GMT -5
So. You are comfortable hiring a lawyer who comes to court in flip flops and cut offs?
I disagree. I don't think it's meaningless. And I do judge people's professionalism to some extent on whether they are dressed appropriately for an occasion. Granted, this matters more in some professions than in others. The more I am paying, and/or the more important it is, the more I want them to look the part. And then too, the part will look different for some jobs than for others. E.g., I would think a journalist who covers war stories or protests or street crime is going to have a different dress code than one who covers the White House or Capital Hill. Suits aren't for everyone. Appropriate for the job is. Call me old-fashioned.
To me it signifies, among other things, that they take their job seriously. And if I'm hiring them, that matters. A lot.
Also, shine your shoes. Comb your hair. Keep your nails neat. They don't have to be manicured, but they need to be neat.
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Post by Christine on Jul 15, 2017 22:20:31 GMT -5
So. You are comfortable hiring a lawyer who comes to court in flip flops and cut offs? I disagree. I don't think it's meaningless. And I do judge people's professionalism to some extent on whether they are dressed appropriately for an occasion. To me it signifies, among other things, that they take their job seriously. And if I'm hiring them, that matters. A lot. Also, shine your shoes. Comb your hair. Keep your nails neat. They don't have to be manicured, but they need to be neat. To court, no, because they wouldn't be able to represent me after having been kicked out for not following the dress code. But I'd be perfectly fine with him or her dressed that way for a consultation in their office. What I'd be interested in, during that consultation, were the words coming out of their mouth. ETA:Body odor and/or toe jam would not be acceptable.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2017 22:24:10 GMT -5
So. You are comfortable hiring a lawyer who comes to court in flip flops and cut offs? I disagree. I don't think it's meaningless. And I do judge people's professionalism to some extent on whether they are dressed appropriately for an occasion. To me it signifies, among other things, that they take their job seriously. And if I'm hiring them, that matters. A lot. Also, shine your shoes. Comb your hair. Keep your nails neat. They don't have to be manicured, but they need to be neat. To court, no, because they wouldn't be able to represent me after having been kicked out for not following the dress code. But I'd be perfectly fine with him or her dressed that way for a consultation in their office. Good luck to you then. I wouldn't be, unless they'd done lots of great work for me in the past, and the reason they were meeting me in cut-offs and flip flops was because I'd made an emergency call to them on vacation and they'd rushed straight to my place. Trust me that you are in a tiny minority if you genuinely feel that way. Few want to pay between $500-$1500 an hour for someone who can't be bothered to change out of their flip-flops for you.
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Post by Christine on Jul 15, 2017 22:31:40 GMT -5
Few want to pay $500-$1500 an hour no matter how fancy you dress.
Jesus Christ.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2017 22:38:04 GMT -5
Few want to pay $500-$1500 an hour no matter how fancy you dress. Jesus Christ. $500 an hour is low end in NYC. If you want a partner at a big firm, you will pay four figures an hour. Plenty pay it. ETA: There are lots of firms with casual dress codes (if you aren't meeting clients or going to court). But you can imagine that if you are paying your lawyer that much, you want them to look professional, not be comfy. I really do not find professional attire uncomfortable anyway.
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Post by Christine on Jul 15, 2017 22:45:39 GMT -5
Few want to pay $500-$1500 an hour no matter how fancy you dress. Jesus Christ. $500 an hour is low end in NYC. If you want a partner at a big firm, you will pay four figures an hour. Plenty pay it. Yes, I've seen NYC attorney invoices, though none anywhere near 1,500/hr. The highest I've seen is 450/hr. From several of my NY clients (FL residents with NY summer homes), who fired their NYC accountants.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2017 22:52:24 GMT -5
I'm guessing solo practitioners or not working in Manhattan? That's actually low in NYC, believe it or not. I know a guy working out of his apartment who charges $650/hr!
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Post by Christine on Jul 15, 2017 22:54:44 GMT -5
No clue. But the general consensus seems to be to seek alternative counsel.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 15, 2017 23:01:12 GMT -5
The general consensus by whom? If you live in New York or purchase goods or services in New York, they will be more than in other areas of the country. That applies to restaurants, apartments, and lawyers. And lawyers aren't really cheap anywhere. That's the market.
Sorry your clients chose poorly. A good lawyer can save their clients' money or their ass.
I'm getting annoyed, so I'm going to bed. Good night.
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Post by Optimus on Jul 15, 2017 23:30:00 GMT -5
I guess I don't really get your point, then. The reason that "casual Fridays" and other such things exist in the first place is because some businesses have already tested them and made the determination that they make a meaningful difference for those businesses. If "casual Fridays" didn't already exist, then we wouldn't be able to have a conversation about them. My point is that, according to the study linked in the OP article, wearing professional attire increases productivity, attention, etc. If this is true, then casual Friday attire would presumably decrease productivity. If that were true, businesses wouldn't be having casual Friday attire. That's because you're looking at this in a very binary, black/white way coupled with a misunderstanding of the literature. There are several variables that affect workplace motivation and productivity. How one dresses is one of many variables that can affect it in a positive way. However, there are also various factors which can decrease motivation and productivity. Monotony is one of those variables (because it is strongly positively associated with boredom). So, sometimes businesses need to mix things up to affect this tug-of-war between factors that have positive effects and those that have negative effects. Some companies have apparently found that instituting "casual Fridays" can be helpful in breaking up monotony and having a positive effect on motivation and/or productivity. That doesn't mean it will work in every business. But those who have tried it and kept it have obviously found benefits, whatever those benefits may be. This example is a simplified way of looking at it because, as I said, workplace motivation and productivity is more complex than many people think. But, it is nonetheless an accurate representation of a possible reason for casual Fridays. This is just all your personal opinion and you're of course free to have it. But it doesn't mesh with reality and it is opposite what many consumer preference surveys have indicated over and over again across many industries. It's not just employers who prefer professional attire (depending on the industry); it is also customers (again, depends on the industry). You're welcome to wage your culture war against professional business attire in the workplace but I doubt you will make much headway within the next several decades. You are definitely in the minority on this.
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Post by Christine on Jul 15, 2017 23:34:06 GMT -5
The general consensus by whom? If you live in New York or purchase goods or services in New York, they will be more than in other areas of the country. That applies to restaurants, apartments, and lawyers. And lawyers aren't really cheap anywhere. That's the market. Sorry your clients chose poorly. A good lawyer can save their clients' money or their ass. I'm getting annoyed, so I'm going to bed. Good night. Cass, I'm sorry, I've been too snarky. The thing is, there is this general consensus by people who are either my clients or my associates' clients (among us we have maybe... 20 people and businesses) who live in or do business in NY/NYC who are frustrated by the exorbitant fees charged by NYC lawyers. And accountants, before we took over. You don't actually have to have office space in a high-rise in NYC to provide proper legal services to a NYC client, or accounting/tax services. In the case of the multi-million dollar company whose financial statements I audit, they just recently changed lawyers, specifically because the CFO couldn't make a 20 minute phone call without being charged a few hundred bucks. He runs the company. He is in charge of the finances. He couldn't justify the cost, so he sought alternate legal counsel, and got it at a price and with the expertise he felt was appropriate. I have had conversations with that company's previous NYC lawyer on various issues. I really liked him and appreciated his legal expertise. Seriously, I reaaaaally liked him. So well spoken. I could have just listened to him for hours and hours. (And I have no doubt he wore a suit and tie, even for conference calls.) But the company in question didn't need to tether themselves to NYC, even though they do business there. They're multi-state, with Florida as their corporate headquarters, and there are a lot of good attorneys out there who don't have to pay NYC rent or wear $3,000 suits. So my client went elsewhere. This is not new or unusual. In the case of tax preparation, several of my clients came to me from NYC accountants who were literally charging three times what I charge, for the same services. (And my first NYC client created a ripple effect--one client was happy, referred his friend, and viola, they're all saving thousands of dollars and I am making thousands of dollars.) I'm not trying to insult NYC lawyers or accountants, but I disagree that my clients have chosen poorly, and I think to say that is kind of insulting. There are many good lawyers and accountants that don't reside in NYC. For example, I am intimately familiar with NY and NYC tax law, because of my clients, because of the research I have done over the years. I am fully capable of representing my NY clients in tax matters. I think the same is true for legal representation outside of NYC.
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Post by Christine on Jul 15, 2017 23:56:08 GMT -5
That's because you're looking at this in a very binary, black/white way coupled with a misunderstanding of the literature. There are several variables that affect workplace motivation and productivity. How one dresses is one of many variables that can affect it in a positive way. However, there are also various factors which can decrease motivation and productivity. Monotony is one of those variables (because it is strongly positively associated with boredom). So, sometimes businesses need to mix things up to affect this tug-of-war between factors that have positive effects and those that have negative effects. Some companies have apparently found that instituting "casual Fridays" can be helpful in breaking up monotony and having a positive effect on motivation and/or productivity. That doesn't mean it will work in every business. But those who have tried it and kept it have obviously found benefits, whatever those benefits may be. This example is a simplified way of looking at it because, as I said, workplace motivation and productivity is more complex than many people think. But, it is nonetheless an accurate representation of a possible reason for casual Fridays. Okay, so... in the study, when people put on white lab coats, and were told it was a doctor's lab coat, and were supposedly more productive, all that you just talked about is evidence that there's a lot more to it than that and we can't just make judgements about productivity based on what people wear. On Fridays, or by extension, on any other day. RIGHT? It's not a culture war. I'm trying to have a conversation about what we perceive as appropriate versus what actually matters. What is real versus what we all just shrug off and accept because of culture.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 0:04:38 GMT -5
I'm not trying to insult NYC lawyers or accountants, but I disagree that my clients have chosen poorly, and I think to say that is kind of insulting. You've just said that the general consensus i s that clients should look elsewhere rather than pay rates that NYC lawyers -- that would be ME, you might recall -- charge, and I'M being insulting? Yeah. Good night.
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