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Post by Christine on Jul 16, 2017 21:53:30 GMT -5
I don't understand why you keep bringing up nekkid.
Arguments for a dress code are not won by "but what about no clothes at all." Slippery slope, meh.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 21:58:59 GMT -5
Sometimes clothes are not just about you and your bodily autonomy. It's not just about what you're feeling that day, or your self-expression.
Sometimes they are about sending a message to others: "I respect the importance of this occasion for you" "I respect the importance of this meeting." "I care about this date and want to make a good impression." "I am a professional."
To put it another way: "I put this small amount of effort into my appearance because you matter to me."
Wearing flip-flops to a funeral send the message, well, what? -- "I care about my own comfort more than you?" "This is about my bodily autonomy and freedom of toes, not your husband's death"? "Me, me, it's all about me, first and always, me and my plastic footwear?"
I keep bringing up naked to bring the point that it really just isn't all about oneself and one's comfort and one's self-expression. If it were, and naked was more comfortable, and you felt more you naked, why not naked?
The answer is "because it isn't appropriate." That's for when you are home eating pizza on the couch.
And, like it or not, there are other rules about what is appropriate attire under various circumstances. If you flout them, you are sending a message to many, whether you like it or not. That will continue to be true unless and until we reach your ideal world where everyone slops about 24/7/365 in $2 drugstore sandals and cutoffs, perhaps accompanied by a feather boa for self expression. At which point I shall put on my very nicest outfit and decorously shoot myself in protest.
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Post by Christine on Jul 16, 2017 22:26:28 GMT -5
Sometimes clothes are not just about you and your bodily autonomy. It's not just about what you're feeling that day, or your self-expression. Sometimes they are about sending a message to others: "I respect the importance of this occasion for you" "I respect the importance of this meeting." "I care about this date and want to make a good impression." "I am a professional." I keep bringing up naked to bring the point that it really just isn't all about oneself and one's comfort and one's self-expression. That's for when you are home eating pizza on the couch. People self-express in many ways. Sometimes by conforming to all the social norms. The way they dress in public, for whatever occasion, to ensure people perceive them in a certain way. The way they wish to be perceived. Their self-expression is essentially in how socially correct they are at expressing themselves. Other people have a different self-expression, which some disapprove of, because social norms. Apparently, there's a right way and a wrong way to express yourself, and the wrong way needs to stay on the couch.
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Post by Christine on Jul 16, 2017 22:41:45 GMT -5
And, like it or not, there are other rules about what is appropriate attire under various circumstances. If you flout them, you are sending a message to many, whether you like it or not. That will continue to be true unless and until we reach your ideal world where everyone slops about 24/7/365 in $2 drugstore sandals and cutoffs, perhaps accompanied by a feathe r bia for self expression. At which point I shall put on my very nicest outfit and decorously shoot myself in protest. You know what? This thing where you add "plastic" to flip flops, and now they cost $2.00 at the drug store, and of course the shorts are "cutoffs" ... you don't have any clue. I pay $60 for my flip flops, I don't wear "cutoffs" and I look very good in my shorts and shirts. Very clean, very neat, very nicely smelling, hair washed and dried, nails done, teeth brushed, eyebrows plucked, chapstick on, etc. My ideal world where everyone slops about? You are such a SNOB. You assume that because I don't wear a suit, I look like a slob. I am totally not coming to your wedding OR your funeral.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 22:55:37 GMT -5
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Post by Christine on Jul 16, 2017 23:21:22 GMT -5
Gee Cass, that's so nice of you to 'splain where all the poor people can get clothes you approve of.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 16, 2017 23:42:14 GMT -5
While it was highly entertaining for a while to watch you get all self-virtuous about your right to self-express by wearing flip flops to funerals and rant about how insufferable snobby it is to adhere to customary norms in dress codes, it has become tedious for me.
You may continue to do so as far as I am concerned, but you can do it alone. I'm out.
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Post by Christine on Jul 16, 2017 23:49:39 GMT -5
While it was highly entertaining for a while to watch you get all self-virtuous about your right to self-express by wearing flip flops to funerals and rant about how insufferable snobby it is to adhere to customary norms in dress codes, it has become tedious for me. You may continue to do so as far as I am concerned, but you can do it alone. I'm out. Lol.
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Post by poetinahat on Jul 17, 2017 0:42:35 GMT -5
It's a dress code, not a loyalty oath. As long as it's not codifying discrimination, segregation, oppression, or some other institutionalised unfairness, and it's not an excessive burden to comply with the code, I don't see a big controversy.
If the dress code extended to physical attributes, or impinged upon religious custom (say, prohibiting turbans), or just plain required excessive cost or effort, then I'd see a problem. But dressing for the job, as a matter of decorum or showing respect for colleagues and counterparts, seems fine to me.
I imagine that many people value their marks of rank - say, barristers and their wigs.
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Post by Amadan on Jul 17, 2017 7:06:24 GMT -5
But no, my brain is not affected by my clothing. It just isn't. I do not stop thinking, or think differently, depending upon what I'm wearing. I have a hard time believing that I'm the only one who feels this way. You probably aren't, but (a) it's possible you feel that way but you'd actually be surprised if it were put to the test; (b) even if it's true that how you dress has no effect at all on your demeanor or attitude, you may be in the minority. Any psychological/social study that determines "Such and such phenomenon is observable X% of the time" means that for n-X people, it's not observable. You'll rarely see a study that says "This is true always and affects everyone equally." Painters and doctors aside, sure, skepticism is warranted. The results remind me of studies that showed that things like implicit bias, "stereotype threat," and "psychological priming" are real - studies that subsequently could not be replicated. That said, I know that subjectively, how I dress seems to affect my demeanor and attitude, so I don't find it unlikely that it is an observable phenomenon in X% of people. Maybe it's nothing more than how much you give a shit about how people perceive you, but it's there.
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Post by Amadan on Jul 17, 2017 7:12:03 GMT -5
If someone were too poor to afford shoes, or some malady prevented you from wearing actual shoes, I would not be offended if you wore flip-flops to my formal wedding. If you wore them because you couldn't be bothered to dress for the occasion I'd be offended. Ditto for my loved one's funeral. Poverty or some disability would justify it. Mere comfiness and laziness, no. Prefer not to know me. I think it's rude to put your comfort ahead of every other consideration. I gotta agree with Cass. If you wore flip-flops to my wedding, or my grandmother's funeral, I'd take it as a signal that you are not taking it seriously. I think most people would. (And before you start carving out exceptions, yes, I'm sure in some contexts - like, you are BFFs and always pulling pranks like this on each other, or you know grandma was a character and she'd have laughed her ass off at the idea of people wearing flip-flops to her funeral - then maybe it would be cool. But in most situations, no.)
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Post by robeiae on Jul 17, 2017 9:02:13 GMT -5
Well, some arbitrary things are pointless. Like, I hate ties. They're obsolete and uncomfortable and continue to exist as a relic that serves only to signify formality. I'd be happy if ties stopped being part of formal men's wear. See, this is where I am, what I meant about making "minor changes." Ties are just a decorative accessory, nothing more. They serve no purpose and are--for many people--quite uncomfortable. And I don't think there needs to be a slippery slope here at all. I objected to the hyperbole in the original piece, wherein any change to standards was being equated to cargo shorts and sandals. That's not a valid argument, imo. I think--again, per the article--that women can look quite professional in a sleeveless dress and/or opened toed shoes. And men can look quite professional without a tie or even without a jacket. I'm in South Florida and let me tell you, I think people sweating profusely in a suit and tie is a far worse look than people in a smart button down dress shirt (that's light and comfortable)--or even shirt sleeves--and nice slacks. There's plenty of room between stodgy formal-wear and beach attire.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 10:02:51 GMT -5
I don't disagree that dressy peep-toe pumps are not flip-flops, nor that a tailored sleeveless dress can be professional, nor that a man can look dapper without a tie. If an office dress code chooses to embrace those changes, fine. That said, while, sure, one swelters outside in 100 degree heat in a suit jacket, how much time does one actually spend outside, typically, when wearing a suit jacket? Most suit-clad people step from their air-conditioned homes to their air-conditioned cars to their air-conditioned offices. I tend to shiver at the temperature they're generally kept, even with a suit jacket. NYC bakes in summer. And we're a walking, public transportation city. The subway tunnels aren't air-conditioned and can get to 100+ degrees with no breeze. So I know what you mean. But then you spend most of the day in an office at 68 degrees. My solution for such formal office dress codes: carry the jacket when out in the heat. I often carry shoes and switch at the office. (I do that on bad weather days, too.) ETA: Anyway. I think saying (as Rob is) "perhaps it's time to tweak certain dress rules to accommodate the heat" is one thing; saying "screw dress rules, I gotta be me, flip-flops forever" is another. I can get on board with the first, but not on the latter. If you choose to work at a place with a dress code, you should respect it. And I don't think someone else's funeral or wedding is the place to make a stand for your bodily autonomy as expressed in dress, though you can set whatever rules you like for your own. (As I noted, such dress codes should not outlaw religiously-required articles of clothing like turbans or head-scarves. In any case, most require skin to be covered, not exposed, and need not be incompatible with the spirit and purpose of formality. This really is not about high fashion so much as a level of formality.) ETA: Finally, I'll add that I rolled my eyes at the people screeching that the dress code at issue in the OP was sexist. It was not -- neither men nor women are supposed to bare their arms. It didn't hold women to a different standard -- it held them to the same standard. Arguing it should be relaxed is one thing -- arguing it's straight out of The Handmaid's Tale is another. Requiring both sexes to cover their arms is not comparable, at all, to making one sex wear head to toe shrouds. That's a freaking joke.
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Post by Don on Jul 17, 2017 15:52:34 GMT -5
As usual, I'm in the pro-choice camp. Toss the dress code. Adults should be capable of dressing themselves. If they can't manage that, you have the recourse of the ballot box.
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Post by Deleted on Jul 17, 2017 16:02:51 GMT -5
True. One can always fire them, not invite them, or not allow them into the press room/restaurant/black tie gala. Pro-choice!
You choose whether or not your company has a dress code and what it is, employees choose whether or not to accept a job offer on those terms, and then choose whether or not to ignore your dress code. You choose whether or not to continue employing them.
Yep. That works fine for me.
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