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Post by Amadan on Oct 22, 2017 18:08:36 GMT -5
Holy. Shit. So, no one is actually trying to balance the scales when it comes to historical (and in some cases, current) inequities? They're just trying to piss off all the white guys? I don't think that's a good or moral strategy, at all. I also don't think it's the point, at all, but MMV. The stated intent of progressive stacking, like many of the SJW initiatives I roll my eyes at, is to balance the scales when it comes to historical inequities. The reason I so often roll my eyes is that the actual intent often turns out to be "piss off white guys," and that's certainly the impression I got from Ms. McKellop's smug, self-satisfied Tweet. That would only annoy me a little, but if I know the teacher is doing it as a matter of policy, I would still assume that she's judging me more harshly in general because I'm a white guy (to "correct historical inequities") which means in matters of grading, classroom disputes, disciplinary proceedings, etc., I am likely to get screwed.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 22, 2017 18:11:59 GMT -5
I agree with the fucking* white males in the thread. I don't want to be called on to the exclusion of others in the class, and I don't give a fuck who they are. I feel strongly enough about it that I'd give this professor's classes a miss, were I attending school there, unless I could not avoid them. And, as a wee woman with an Hispanic name, who thrusts my hand up vigorously a la Hermione Granger and speaks up when I want to participate....I always got called on. Where are these classes where women and minorities have their hands raised but only the white guys get called on? In 1958? Oh, so because you are a short woman with a Hispanic name and you always got called on when you stuck your short arm up that has to mean there's no problem here. Everybody gets treated the same by the professor or T.A. because there's no racial or gender bias in the lecture hall? That's called anecdotal evidence and its proof of nothing except one person's trip down Memory Lane. What America are you living in, Cassandra? The Happy Days version of 1958? To be fair, I first came across this on Twitter as the shit storm started. The next day, I posted the threads and looked for a few links. The College Fix was actually one I came across after I posted, so I edited it in. To be accurate, the source still matters and when it is obviously a biased and slanted source which specializes in shit-stirring, it doubly matters. What you and the others are not considering is progressive stacking is a solution to a problem and the problem is People of Color can raise their hands and be ignored. They can have the answer and they aren't called on. As usual, people are all up in arms over the remedy and don't even consider there might be an ailment it was designed for. It's much easier to believe than it is to think and this thread is ample evidence of it. Hey, Vince? "This person" has a name. It's Stephanie McKellop. If you're going to start this dogpile of a thread, it might not kill you to bother to learn it and use it. I saw this shit before with Liz Phipps Soeiro and its starting to look like a deliberate way to slight the subject as being unworthy of even minimal respect. Keep it classy. Yes? Is there a point you wanted to make here? A Black female has less agency than a Black male and a Black male has less agency than a White female and all three of have less agency than a White male. That's how it has been and that's how too many people think it should always be. Boo-fucking-hoo. He's still a White man and this entire thread is balanced on the shaky premise a White man should NEVER take a back seat to anyone. I don't have a problem with being attentive to subconscious biases - we are all familiar with the studies that show boys get called on more often than girls (partly because boys are more likely to eagerly put their hands up and speak out, Hermiones aside...). Making sure everyone gets an equal chance to be heard, and maybe giving extra attention to groups who tend to be heard less, is not unreasonable. The problem with this grad student's tweet is if I were in her class, I'd assume that being a white male, not only can I expect not to be called on (which, okay, fine, I don't feel like I need to put my opinion out there all the time and maybe sometimes I like being the guy sitting quietly in the back being ignored), but her attitude suggests active hostility towards me. I would transfer out of her class because I'd assume her judgment is going to carry over to her grading. That's not being upset that I don't get to speak over non-white guys, it's making a pragmatic assessment that this person who has power over me has said, in so many words, that she assumes I'm a bag of privilege who needs to be taken down a peg. So, basically, progressive stacking makes white men feel alienated and resentful, and we can't have that. (Yes, there's a bit of snark there, but I can agree the best solution to a problem is going to be the one that does not alienate anyone--if this is possible.) It's not. There's no such thing as a solution to a problem that does not alienate anyone. Some people are going to take offense to anything that even seemingly inconveniences them. We must protect our snowflakes at all costs. That's how you make America hate great hate again.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 18:12:29 GMT -5
If I thought a professor was consistently ignoring me in class -- whether as an individual or as one of many women h/she was ignoring -- I'd raise it nicely after class, going on the assumption he/she was acting in good faith and was not doing so consciously. If it continued to happen, I'd raise it with the dean. Because, you know, I pay tuition.
As a matter of fact, this never happened to me. I was a pretty damn active member of any class where I was interested in participating.
Heh. I once had an undergrad professor privately tell me during office hours he was going to call on other people instead of me -- but that was because I dominated the class. I was often the only person regularly volunteering, usually kicked off discussions, and he wanted to get the rest of the class more involved.
Alas, as it turned out, my not raising my hand didn't make my classmates more likely to do so. In fact, they became less likely to speak up because I was often the one breaking the ice, after which they'd speak up to agree or rebut me. After a while, the professor (with whom I got along splendidly, by the way), shrugged and told me to start being Hermione again.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 22, 2017 18:21:37 GMT -5
What you and the others are not considering is progressive stacking is a solution to a problem and the problem is People of Color can raise their hands and be ignored. They can have the answer and they aren't called on. As usual, people are all up in arms over the remedy and don't even consider there might be an ailment it was designed for. I'm aware of studies showing that women are called on less frequently than men, though I'm having trouble finding any such studies that aren't pretty old, which makes me question whether it's still an endemic problem, given the current trend in education which is all about empowering girls. I have not been able to find any similar studies showing that non-white people are ignored in class more frequently. Do you have any? Or just anecdotal evidence, which you have established is irrelevant?
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Post by Vince524 on Oct 22, 2017 18:22:02 GMT -5
I agree with the fucking* white males in the thread. I don't want to be called on to the exclusion of others in the class, and I don't give a fuck who they are. I feel strongly enough about it that I'd give this professor's classes a miss, were I attending school there, unless I could not avoid them. And, as a wee woman with an Hispanic name, who thrusts my hand up vigorously a la Hermione Granger and speaks up when I want to participate....I always got called on. Where are these classes where women and minorities have their hands raised but only the white guys get called on? In 1958? Oh, so because you are a short woman with a Hispanic name and you always got called on when you stuck your short arm up that has to mean there's no problem here. Everybody gets treated the same by the professor or T.A. because there's no racial or gender bias in the lecture hall? That's called anecdotal evidence and its proof of nothing except one person's trip down Memory Lane. What America are you living in, Cassandra? The Happy Days version of 1958? To be fair, I first came across this on Twitter as the shit storm started. The next day, I posted the threads and looked for a few links. The College Fix was actually one I came across after I posted, so I edited it in. To be accurate, the source still matters and when it is obviously a biased and slanted source which specializes in shit-stirring, it doubly matters. What you and the others are not considering is progressive stacking is a solution to a problem and the problem is People of Color can raise their hands and be ignored. They can have the answer and they aren't called on. As usual, people are all up in arms over the remedy and don't even consider there might be an ailment it was designed for. It's much easier to believe than it is to think and this thread is ample evidence of it. Hey, Vince? "This person" has a name. It's Stephanie McKellop. If you're going to start this dogpile of a thread, it might not kill you to bother to learn it and use it. I saw this shit before with Liz Phipps Soeiro and its starting to look like a deliberate way to slight the subject as being unworthy of even minimal respect. Keep it classy. Yes? Is there a point you wanted to make here? A Black female has less agency than a Black male and a Black male has less agency than a White female and all three of have less agency than a White male. That's how it has been and that's how too many people think it should always be. Boo-fucking-hoo. He's still a White man and this entire thread is balanced on the shaky premise a White man should NEVER take a back seat to anyone. So, basically, progressive stacking makes white men feel alienated and resentful, and we can't have that. (Yes, there's a bit of snark there, but I can agree the best solution to a problem is going to be the one that does not alienate anyone--if this is possible.) It's not. There's no such thing as a solution to a problem that does not alienate anyone. Some people are going to take offense to anything that even seemingly inconveniences them. We must protect our snowflakes at all costs. That's how you make America hate great hate again. The source was Twitter. I saw it there and posted. The fact that there was a link from the college fix on it is besides the point since you're not debating anything they said. You're simply endorsing what she's said. And it's not that no white man should ever take a back seat. It's that every student should be treated equally and fairly, regardless of their race or gender.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 18:22:32 GMT -5
I agree with the fucking* white males in the thread. I don't want to be called on to the exclusion of others in the class, and I don't give a fuck who they are. I feel strongly enough about it that I'd give this professor's classes a miss, were I attending school there, unless I could not avoid them. And, as a wee woman with an Hispanic name, who thrusts my hand up vigorously a la Hermione Granger and speaks up when I want to participate....I always got called on. Where are these classes where women and minorities have their hands raised but only the white guys get called on? In 1958? Oh, so because you are a short woman with a Hispanic name and you always got called on when you stuck your short arm up that has to mean there's no problem here. Everybody gets treated the same by the professor or T.A. because there's no racial or gender bias in the lecture hall? That's called anecdotal evidence and its proof of nothing except one person's trip down Memory Lane. What America are you living in, Cassandra? The Happy Days version of 1958? To be fair, I first came across this on Twitter as the shit storm started. The next day, I posted the threads and looked for a few links. The College Fix was actually one I came across after I posted, so I edited it in. To be accurate, the source still matters and when it is obviously a biased and slanted source which specializes in shit-stirring, it doubly matters. What you and the others are not considering is progressive stacking is a solution to a problem and the problem is People of Color can raise their hands and be ignored. They can have the answer and they aren't called on. As usual, people are all up in arms over the remedy and don't even consider there might be an ailment it was designed for. It's much easier to believe than it is to think and this thread is ample evidence of it. Hey, Vince? "This person" has a name. It's Stephanie McKellop. If you're going to start this dogpile of a thread, it might not kill you to bother to learn it and use it. I saw this shit before with Liz Phipps Soeiro and its starting to look like a deliberate way to slight the subject as being unworthy of even minimal respect. Keep it classy. Yes? Is there a point you wanted to make here? A Black female has less agency than a Black male and a Black male has less agency than a White female and all three of have less agency than a White male. That's how it has been and that's how too many people think it should always be. Boo-fucking-hoo. He's still a White man and this entire thread is balanced on the shaky premise a White man should NEVER take a back seat to anyone. So, basically, progressive stacking makes white men feel alienated and resentful, and we can't have that. (Yes, there's a bit of snark there, but I can agree the best solution to a problem is going to be the one that does not alienate anyone--if this is possible.) It's not. There's no such thing as a solution to a problem that does not alienate anyone. Some people are going to take offense to anything that even seemingly inconveniences them. We must protect our snowflakes at all costs. That's how you make America hate great hate again. It's about fucking time you and Christine acknowledged my presence in this thread. Up until now you were too goddamn busy talking to the white boys and pretending I wasn't here. Not the first time it has happened, either. I got as in your face as I could to try to change that dynamic. Mission. Fucking. Accomplished. And as a matter of fact, it's how I recommend students address this issue in a classroom, too. Really, you see people in classrooms waving their hand desperately and never getting called on, because only the white boys were? For years of college, three years of law school, a shitload of graduate course, and I've never seen it once. Not once. What I've sometimes seen in class are white boy nerds being up front and aggressive in their participation, while few others did. I'm an exception. I act like the white boys in class, and trust me, they didn't dominate me there any more than they do online.
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Post by Christine on Oct 22, 2017 18:22:40 GMT -5
Holy. Shit. So, no one is actually trying to balance the scales when it comes to historical (and in some cases, current) inequities? They're just trying to piss off all the white guys? I don't think that's a good or moral strategy, at all. I also don't think it's the point, at all, but MMV. The stated intent of progressive stacking, like many of the SJW initiatives I roll my eyes at, is to balance the scales when it comes to historical inequities. The reason I so often roll my eyes is that the actual intent often turns out to be "piss off white guys," and that's certainly the impression I got from Ms. McKellop's smug, self-satisfied Tweet. McKellop is ONE person. You and others here seem to be holding up McKellop--ONE person--as evidence of the true intent of progressive stacking. You would assume that because you feel "SJWs" are out to get you, a white man? Maybe stop for a minute and consider that it might not even be about you?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 18:23:34 GMT -5
It's apparently not about me, either.
It appears anecdotal evidence is fine and sufficient so long as it supports an alleged "progressive" action, but irrelevant and offensive if it disputes it.
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Post by Christine on Oct 22, 2017 18:29:23 GMT -5
On the contrary. As far as I can tell, this is turning into the thread where Cass explains how she conquered sexism, and how Black people should take notes.
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Post by Vince524 on Oct 22, 2017 18:30:53 GMT -5
The stated intent of progressive stacking, like many of the SJW initiatives I roll my eyes at, is to balance the scales when it comes to historical inequities. The reason I so often roll my eyes is that the actual intent often turns out to be "piss off white guys," and that's certainly the impression I got from Ms. McKellop's smug, self-satisfied Tweet. McKellop is ONE person. You and others here seem to be holding up McKellop--ONE person--as evidence of the true intent of progressive stacking. You would assume that because you feel "SJWs" are out to get you, a white man? Maybe stop for a minute and consider that it might not even be about you? My comments are against McKellop first and foremost. Against anyone who excuses or even supports her behavior second. And in her case, if I were a white student in her class, I'd assume she was out to get me. She pretty much as said so.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 22, 2017 18:39:06 GMT -5
McKellop is ONE person. You and others here seem to be holding up McKellop--ONE person--as evidence of the true intent of progressive stacking. Actually, this entire thread has been specifically about Ms. McKellop. We haven't had much of a discussion about whether "progressive stacking" in general is a good idea or a bad one. If you're asking my opinion, I already gave it when I said that being mindful of subconscious biases and making sure everyone has a voice - especially those who might not have had a voice in the past - is important. But as an explicit policy of "White people always speak last, if at all," no, I don't think that is a good classroom policy. In the past, I've seen progressive stacking advocated for SJ organizations, and maybe it makes sense for a group where you've had a problem with white people or men taking over an agenda that is supposed to be about non-white men. So, sure, in that context, for a private organization, I can see the applicability. But if a schoolteacher (or university teacher, even if just a grad student) is using that as classroom policy, I would certainly have a problem with it if I or my child were in the class. Maybe stop for a minute and consider the possibility that I did? Look, if you're going to be like NT and assume everyone arguing with you is always doing so in bad faith, then there is no point in going beyond the level of discussion with NT, which is barbs and back-and-forths about whether or not everyone is a racist. I have been trying to give you the benefit of the doubt, but the constant snark is annoying. One more time - no, I don't think SJWs are "out to get me," but if my teacher/TA post smug tweets about how she's doing the Lord's work by always calling on white guys last, I am going to assume she has a negative attitude about white guys. I am going to assume that if I have an argument with her, or anyone else in class, unless it's another white guy, I lose. I am going to assume that if it's a class I actually like and am interested and engaged in, I won't get much opportunity to contribute because she'll only call on me reluctantly and only if no one else wants to say anything. Maybe you believe that I should just accept that as my rightful burden to repay my white male privilege, but I'm not going to persist in a space where it's clear I'm not really wanted. Note that I never even said I would complain about her or try to get her disciplined - I'd just withdraw from her class. Am I not even allowed to do that, or am I obligated to hang around and demonstrate my willingness to roll over and show my belly?
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 18:39:07 GMT -5
On the contrary. As far as I can tell, this is turning into the thread where Cass explains how she conquered sexism, and how Black people should take notes. Yeah. You and nt show some actual evidence of women (woke TA mentioned women, too, did she not?) and people of color with hands raised Hermione-style trying desperately to participate in a modern college classroom and getting ignored by professors who only call on white males. I'll wait. I've never seen it, not have I experienced it. So show me some goddamn proof. All you have is snark and virtue signaling, at the moment. And I can't see that's better than what I have.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 22, 2017 18:40:52 GMT -5
If I thought a professor was consistently ignoring me in class -- whether as an individual or as one of many women h/she was ignoring -- I'd raise it nicely after class, going on the assumption he/she was acting in good faith and was not doing so consciously. If it continued to happen, I'd raise it with the dean. Because, you know, I pay tuition. As a matter of fact, this never happened to me. I was a pretty damn active member of any class where I was interested in participating. Heh. I once had an undergrad professor privately tell me during office hours he was going to call on other people instead of me -- but that was because I dominated the class. I was often the only person regularly volunteering, usually kicked off discussions, and he wanted to get the rest of the class more involved. Alas, as it turned out, my not raising my hand didn't make my classmates more likely to do so. In fact, they became less likely to speak up because I was often the one breaking the ice, after which they'd speak up to agree or rebut me. After a while, the professor (with whom I got along splendidly, by the way), shrugged and told me to start being Hermione again. Cool story, Cassandra. But this is not about you is it? Racism in Academia is a real thing and if not active racism, unconscious bias is a real thing. Your personal experiences are not without merit, but they have no bearing to what students in 2017 experience in the lecture hall.
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Post by Christine on Oct 22, 2017 18:41:13 GMT -5
McKellop is ONE person. You and others here seem to be holding up McKellop--ONE person--as evidence of the true intent of progressive stacking. You would assume that because you feel "SJWs" are out to get you, a white man? Maybe stop for a minute and consider that it might not even be about you? My comments are against McKellop first and foremost. Against anyone who excuses or even supports her behavior second. That's fine. And my vote was "meh." I'm sorry. I'm not trying to hate on white men, I promise. But see... no. Just for purposes of accuracy. She is not "out to get" white men; she just, apparently, finds what they have to say irrelevant. Which is not nice, let alone appropriate, but there's no need to exaggerate.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 18:41:21 GMT -5
If I thought a professor was consistently ignoring me in class -- whether as an individual or as one of many women h/she was ignoring -- I'd raise it nicely after class, going on the assumption he/she was acting in good faith and was not doing so consciously. If it continued to happen, I'd raise it with the dean. Because, you know, I pay tuition. As a matter of fact, this never happened to me. I was a pretty damn active member of any class where I was interested in participating. Heh. I once had an undergrad professor privately tell me during office hours he was going to call on other people instead of me -- but that was because I dominated the class. I was often the only person regularly volunteering, usually kicked off discussions, and he wanted to get the rest of the class more involved. Alas, as it turned out, my not raising my hand didn't make my classmates more likely to do so. In fact, they became less likely to speak up because I was often the one breaking the ice, after which they'd speak up to agree or rebut me. After a while, the professor (with whom I got along splendidly, by the way), shrugged and told me to start being Hermione again. Cool story, Cassandra. But this is not about you is it? Racism in Academia is a real thing and if not active racism, unconscious bias is a real thing. Your personal experiences are not without merit, but they have no bearing to what students in 2017 experience in the lecture hall. Cite? For the "this is what students experience in 2017?"
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