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Post by Optimus on Oct 22, 2017 18:42:18 GMT -5
Oh, so because you are a short woman with a Hispanic name and you always got called on when you stuck your short arm up that has to mean there's no problem here. Everybody gets treated the same by the professor or T.A. because there's no racial or gender bias in the lecture hall? That's called anecdotal evidence and its proof of nothing except one person's trip down Memory Lane. The entire bullshit premise that "progressive stacking" is based on is, thus far, nothing but unproven anecdote which, as you said, is "proof of nothing except one person's trip down Memory Lane." Hypocritical statement #1. You mean like the totally biased-against-"whiteness" guy you posted as a source? Hypocritical statement #2. Prove that it is happening and that it is widespread. Otherwise, the entire premise of progressive stacking is an unverified strawman. Evidence, evidence, evidence. Where's the evidence? This entire charade is equivalent to a snake-oil salesman trying to convince someone that they need a bullshit remedy for an ailment that the huckster hasn't even proven the person actually has. It's a homeopathic solution in search of an unproven problem. Irony, thy name is nighttimer. LOL, and there it is! The Hypocritical Statement Hat Trick! You are whining that Vince is being disrespectful to a woman by saying "this person" rather than her name, while you had no problem repeatedly making slut-shaming, misogynistic comments about Melania Trump being a "trophy wife," ridiculing her for posing nude in her former career, and making references to people masturbating to her. I'm convinced that you are actually a parody account. The ham-fisted race-baiting, the egregious sexism/misogyny, and the continual hypocritical contradictions that lack any semblance of self-awareness...it can't be real. There is absolutely no reason anyone here should ever take anything you say seriously either in the past or ever again.
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Post by Christine on Oct 22, 2017 18:55:17 GMT -5
McKellop is ONE person. You and others here seem to be holding up McKellop--ONE person--as evidence of the true intent of progressive stacking. Actually, this entire thread has been specifically about Ms. McKellop. We haven't had much of a discussion about whether "progressive stacking" in general is a good idea or a bad one. From page 1, the very notion of calling on minorities first has been mocked. Thank you for sharing that opinion, especially in a non-mocking, non-derisive way. I disagree that the stacking is inappropriate in the classroom as a matter of course. I think it's possible for it to be unnecessary, or overdone, or taken to an extreme. That wasn't snark. It was an honest question. Looks like we're all getting practice with how to deal with being annoyed today, aren't we? <-----That was snark. My point of "it's not about you," was in relation to why progressive stacking happens (not this particular T.A. or her tweet). And if you (editorial) feel that there is a problem with racism, or sexism, then it seems like you'd be on board with letting a black person or a female person speak ahead of you. That's all.
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Post by Vince524 on Oct 22, 2017 19:26:40 GMT -5
Actually, this entire thread has been specifically about Ms. McKellop. We haven't had much of a discussion about whether "progressive stacking" in general is a good idea or a bad one. From page 1, the very notion of calling on minorities first has been mocked. Thank you for sharing that opinion, especially in a non-mocking, non-derisive way. I disagree that the stacking is inappropriate in the classroom as a matter of course. I think it's possible for it to be unnecessary, or overdone, or taken to an extreme. That wasn't snark. It was an honest question. Looks like we're all getting practice with how to deal with being annoyed today, aren't we? <-----That was snark. My point of "it's not about you," was in relation to why progressive stacking happens (not this particular T.A. or her tweet). And if you (editorial) feel that there is a problem with racism, or sexism, then it seems like you'd be on board with letting a black person or a female person speak ahead of you. That's all. What was mocked was that she would call on students in a particular order. And white men were always last. An afterthought. And may not get called because they were the last resort if she had no choice. Within a few days of the class starting, she'd be able to tell which students were willing to raise their hands easily. Which ones weren't. Each student has their own story and history. Each one deserves to be treated with respect and dignity.
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Post by Vince524 on Oct 22, 2017 19:27:45 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 19:58:21 GMT -5
Taking aside actual evidence that people of color and women in 2017's college classes are routinely raising their hands and being ignored in favor of their white male classmates (and I'd still like to see such evidence, if it exists), I don't even see anecdotal accounts from people directly witnessing or experiencing such a thing.
You have some anecdotes, nt and Christine? Did you spend your college years with your hand in the air while your professors called on white guys instead? Do you have some articles from today's students talking about their first-hand experience in 2017 with this alleged phenomenon in college classrooms?
Absent some support, yes, I am way skeptical that this is a real problem, now, today, in U.S. universities.
Certainly I think there's plenty of racism and sexism in this country. But unless someone can show me some evidence, I'm not buying that this is an example of it, in large part because my own observation and experience doesn't support it. Even less am I buying that this TA has hit on a good way to address it.
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Post by Christine on Oct 22, 2017 20:02:04 GMT -5
You and nt show some actual evidence of women (woke TA mentioned women, too, did she not?) and people of color with hands raised Hermione-style trying desperately to participate in a modern college classroom and getting ignored by professors who only call on white males. I'll wait. Racism starts in elementary school. It does not magically disappear when everyone shows up at university. The slate is not wiped clean. People bring their first 18 years' worth of experiences with them. In some cases, this is a good thing. In others, not so much. I don't know how much racism there is inside the classroom, but there is plenty on campus, possibly even on the rise. And that sort of thing spills over into the classroom. It's important that teachers address these matters. And I bet a lot of them do. The other thing to note is that not all universities are located in liberal communities. Someone's experience in an open, inclusive university does not mean that all universities are open and inclusive.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 20:05:33 GMT -5
That's a vague statement about racism. It isn't evidence or even an anecdote demonstrating that POC and women try in vain to get called on.
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Post by Christine on Oct 22, 2017 20:12:47 GMT -5
You answered three minutes after I posted. Did you read the links?
The reason for progressive stacking isn't necessarily that POC are wildly raising their hands and not being called on. (Did anyone actually claim this?)
The point is to let previously unheard voices be heard--and yes, to even give them priority. They HAVE been ignored. That's why I posted the link regarding racism in primary schools. That's why I posted the link regarding racism happening right now on campuses.
University classrooms can help to balance the scales for POC. I honestly do not understand why this is so offensive.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 22, 2017 20:32:15 GMT -5
You answered three minutes after I posted. Did you read the links? The reason for progressive stacking isn't necessarily that POC are wildly raising their hands and not being called on. (Did anyone actually claim this?) The point is to let previously unheard voices be heard. That's why I posted the link regarding racism in primary schools. That's why I posted the links regarding racism happening right now on campuses. University classrooms can help to balance the scales for POC. I read the links. The articles express a number of arguments about how racism still affects students today, but none of them would be remedied by the "progressive stacking" that has been discussed in this thread. You could argue that progressive stacking is one part of the solution, and again, I think taking care to make sure everyone gets heard and that no one group (particularly white guys) are dominating the discussion is a good idea. But the type of discourse McKellop advocated isn't that nuanced. No one here is denying that racism exists. Maybe you think it's nitpicking to attack this one little facet of an anti-racism agenda, but if we're all supposed to go along with every single idea proposed in the name of combating racism, because to question the utility is to question the cause of fighting racism, then no thanks. It's that kind of all-or-nothing call for consensus that puts me on the anti-SJW side. And NT did claim what you asked about (albeit not with the "wildly" embellishment you added): As usual, people are fist-pumping a remedy for an ailment that hasn't been demonstrated to exist. (By which I mean specifically people not being called on in class, not racism in general.)
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 22, 2017 20:46:13 GMT -5
What you and the others are not considering is progressive stacking is a solution to a problem and the problem is People of Color can raise their hands and be ignored. They can have the answer and they aren't called on. As usual, people are all up in arms over the remedy and don't even consider there might be an ailment it was designed for. I'm aware of studies showing that women are called on less frequently than men, though I'm having trouble finding any such studies that aren't pretty old, which makes me question whether it's still an endemic problem, given the current trend in education which is all about empowering girls. I have not been able to find any similar studies showing that non-white people are ignored in class more frequently. Do you have any? Or just anecdotal evidence, which you have established is irrelevant? Well, there's this: And there's this: Admittedly, this does not specifically address how people of color are dealt with in the lecture hall, but it does confirm institutions of higher learning are not discrimination-free safe zones. The same benighted attitudes about Blacks which abound and thrive in the larger society continue to flourish in academia. To be accurate, the source still matters and when it is obviously a biased and slanted source which specializes in shit-stirring, it doubly matters. What you and the others are not considering is progressive stacking is a solution to a problem and the problem is People of Color can raise their hands and be ignored. They can have the answer and they aren't called on. As usual, people are all up in arms over the remedy and don't even consider there might be an ailment it was designed for. It's much easier to believe than it is to think and this thread is ample evidence of it. Hey, Vince? "This person" has a name. It's Stephanie McKellop. If you're going to start this dogpile of a thread, it might not kill you to bother to learn it and use it. I saw this shit before with Liz Phipps Soeiro and its starting to look like a deliberate way to slight the subject as being unworthy of even minimal respect. Keep it classy. Yes? Is there a point you wanted to make here? A Black female has less agency than a Black male and a Black male has less agency than a White female and all three of have less agency than a White male. That's how it has been and that's how too many people think it should always be. The source was Twitter. I saw it there and posted. The fact that there was a link from the college fix on it is besides the point since you're not debating anything they said. You're simply endorsing what she's said. And it's not that no white man should ever take a back seat. It's that every student should be treated equally and fairly, regardless of their race or gender. Yes, every student should be treated equally and fairly, but they aren't and that means addressing that inequality and unfairness may mean not everyone will be treated as they might wish to be. Everyone includes White men. It's about fucking time you and Christine acknowledged my presence in this thread. Up until now you were too goddamn busy talking to the white boys and pretending I wasn't here. Not the first time it has happened, either. I got as in your face as I could to try to change that dynamic. Mission. Fucking. Accomplished. And as a matter of fact, it's how I recommend students address this issue in a classroom, too. Really, you see people in classrooms waving their hand desperately and never getting called on, because only the white boys were? For years of college, three years of law school, a shitload of graduate course, and I've never seen it once. Not once. What I've sometimes seen in class are white boy nerds being up front and aggressive in their participation, while few others did. I'm an exception. I act like the white boys in class, and trust me, they didn't dominate me there any more than they do online. You want your presence acknowledge, Cassandra? Fine. You got it. You really think getting in my face gets me to respond? If so, you are so, so terribly and completely wrong. If acting like the White boys in class is how you got over, that's great. For you. All your years of college, your three years of law school, a shitload of graduate courses are great. For you. That was you and that was then. This is now and this is not you. The refusal or inability to see other students who were not may have been were treated differently than you doesn't speak to how your natural brilliance emerged. It indicates you might have been so dazzled by own light, you were oblivious the light didn't shine as brightly on your non-White classmates. Yeah, you are an exception, but that doesn't make you exceptional. Not everyone is as confident as you are or as self-assured as you are or as assertive as you are. It doesn't come as naturally or as easy to some as it does for you. Acting like the White boys has never been an option I thought was even remotely possible to pull off. I don't look like a White boy. I don't think like a White boy. I don't act like a White boy. Because being someone I'm not isn't how I roll. Your mileage may vary.
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Post by Christine on Oct 22, 2017 20:51:34 GMT -5
You answered three minutes after I posted. Did you read the links? The reason for progressive stacking isn't necessarily that POC are wildly raising their hands and not being called on. (Did anyone actually claim this?) The point is to let previously unheard voices be heard. That's why I posted the link regarding racism in primary schools. That's why I posted the links regarding racism happening right now on campuses. University classrooms can help to balance the scales for POC. I read the links. The articles express a number of arguments about how racism still affects students today, but none of them would be remedied by the "progressive stacking" that has been discussed in this thread. You could argue that progressive stacking is one part of the solution, and again, I think taking care to make sure everyone gets heard and that no one group (particularly white guys) are dominating the discussion is a good idea. Well, there you go. We are not that far apart in our opinions. I've given my thoughts on her. I've been talking about the concept of stacking in general. It is nitpicking only from the standpoint that, like I mentioned, this is one person, and many are all AHA, See? What did I tell you! Fucking SJW regressives pseudo-liberal bullshit, etc. I maintain that the idea of progressive stacking is NOT the same as what this ONE person said and apparently did. That is what I've been posting about for like the last three or four posts. Fine. I'd just ask that you consider what I actually say without all of the "BUT NT SAID!!!!11!1!!" crap.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 22, 2017 20:54:10 GMT -5
Admittedly, this does not specifically address how people of color are dealt with in the lecture hall, but it does confirm institutions of higher learning are not discrimination-free safe zones. The same benighted attitudes about Blacks which abound and thrive in the larger society continue to flourish in academia. Which is what I was specifically asking about, because (1) that's the problem "progressive stacking" is supposed to address and (2) shifting every argument to "But racism exists!" serves no purpose except soapboxing.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 22, 2017 20:59:56 GMT -5
Admittedly, this does not specifically address how people of color are dealt with in the lecture hall, but it does confirm institutions of higher learning are not discrimination-free safe zones. The same benighted attitudes about Blacks which abound and thrive in the larger society continue to flourish in academia. Which is what I was specifically asking about, because (1) that's the problem "progressive stacking" is supposed to address and (2) shifting every argument to "But racism exists!" serves no purpose except soapboxing. Yes. Racism exists. Sexism exists. That doesn't mean that every goddamn thing in the universe is attributable to racism or sexism. Nor does it mean that any action that vaguely purports to wave a hand in the direction of racism is a good one. If you're going to claim white guys get called on more in college classrooms (no evidence here yet, by the way, unless I missed it), and you're going to claim it's because of racism and sexism, and not just that P.O.C. and women aren't raising their hands, I'd like to see evidence. Because I think it's more that aggressive, enthusiastic, passionate, and/or tenacious people got called on. Hell, even some anecdotes would help. NT and Christine, tell us how you spent your college years with your upraised hand totally ignored while all the white guys around got called on. Though I have a feeling that wasn't the case for either of you. By the way, nt, are you asserting that the atmosphere on your average college campus is LESS progressive in 2017 than when I was in school? Because I sincerely doubt that.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 22, 2017 21:15:33 GMT -5
On the contrary. As far as I can tell, this is turning into the thread where Cass explains how she conquered sexism, and how Black people should take notes. Yeah. You and nt show some actual evidence of women (woke TA mentioned women, too, did she not?) and people of color with hands raised Hermione-style trying desperately to participate in a modern college classroom and getting ignored by professors who only call on white males. I'll wait. I've never seen it, not have I experienced it. So show me some goddamn proof. All you have is snark and virtue signaling, at the moment. And I can't see that's better than what I have. What is this? Are you from Missouri and I have to "show you?" Gotta tell ya, Cassandra, telling me I have to "show you some goddamn proof" does not send chills down my spine and scurrying to Google. The world does not exist to validate your takes and neither do I. That's not what I'm here for. I have no intention of spinning my wheels and wasting my time in pursuit of something YOU consider to be "actual evidence." I've presented MY sources. Where's YOUR goddamn proof? You don't want "actual evidence" Cassandra. You want acknowledgment your personal experience and anecdotal "evidence" is all it takes to carry the day. It doesn't. War stories about what a hard charging, go-getter you were back in the day may fascinate a chosen few, but in debate it means nothing. Less than nothing really, because just because YOU haven't seen it and YOU haven't experienced it doesn't mean it doesn't exist. You say you are unmarried and childless. I am married and have children who no longer are children, but that doesn't make me the definite authority on the topic or that you have nothing to say about marriage and children, does it? There is nothing I can tell you about the law. There is nothing you can tell me about journalism. There is nothing I can tell you about being a woman. There is nothing you can tell me about being a man. There is nothing I can tell you about being White and there is nothing you can tell me about being Black. You and I can offer an opinion on all of those things, but unlike you, I'm willing to admit it won't be an informed opinion. I'm willing to engage in a civil debate with you, but I'm not going to accept demands from you to meet your expectations. I'm not here for that either. Cool story, Cassandra. But this is not about you is it? Racism in Academia is a real thing and if not active racism, unconscious bias is a real thing. Your personal experiences are not without merit, but they have no bearing to what students in 2017 experience in the lecture hall. Cite? For the "this is what students experience in 2017?" I think you just made my point. I'm convinced that you are actually a parody account. The ham-fisted race-baiting, the egregious sexism/misogyny, and the continual hypocritical contradictions that lack any semblance of self-awareness...it can't be real. There is absolutely no reason anyone here should ever take anything you say seriously either in the past or ever again. You take me very seriously, Opty. If you didn't you'd simply ignore me instead of whining and ranting when you get called on your hypocritical crap. You won't. Somewhere deep down in a dark place you don't want to acknowledge you kinda dig it. Taking aside actual evidence that people of color and women in 2017's college classes are routinely raising their hands and being ignored in favor of their white male classmates (and I'd still like to see such evidence, if it exists), I don't even see anecdotal accounts from people directly witnessing or experiencing such a thing. You have some anecdotes, nt and Christine? Did you spend your college years with your hand in the air while your professors called on white guys instead? Do you have some articles from today's students talking about their first-hand experience in 2017 with this alleged phenomenon in college classrooms? Absent some support, yes, I am way skeptical that this is a real problem, now, today, in U.S. universities. Certainly I think there's plenty of racism and sexism in this country. But unless someone can show me some evidence, I'm not buying that this is an example of it, in large part because my own observation and experience doesn't support it. Even less am I buying that this TA has hit on a good way to address it. Fine by me if you're not buying. I wasn't selling. I don't see any upside of sharing my anecdotal stories with strangers. There's way too much oversharing online. If I wanted you to know my personal info I'd send you a friend request.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 22, 2017 21:18:13 GMT -5
Admittedly, this does not specifically address how people of color are dealt with in the lecture hall, but it does confirm institutions of higher learning are not discrimination-free safe zones. The same benighted attitudes about Blacks which abound and thrive in the larger society continue to flourish in academia. Which is what I was specifically asking about, because (1) that's the problem "progressive stacking" is supposed to address and (2) shifting every argument to "But racism exists!" serves no purpose except soapboxing. I've offered significantly more evidence there is a problem in academia of racism which progressive stacking is a method employed to address than you have offered any evidence there's no need for it. I've shown you mine. Show me yours. Otherwise, you have nothing to add but only wanted to be included in the thread.
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