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Post by nighttimer on Nov 3, 2017 9:49:05 GMT -5
Seems to me you spend a whole lot of time here informing the rest of us how Black people feel. I am equally qualified to speak as a New Yorker. The difference is I'm only expressing how one Black person feels. I'm not qualified to attempt to speak for 37 million Black people. So you live in New York. Congratulations. What's that make you? Some sort of expert or something? The driver from LaGuardia lives in New York too and know the city's streets and locations so well he scoffs at GPS. How 'bout you? An Appeal to Authority is a fallacy with the following form: Person A is (claimed to be) an authority on subject S. Person A makes claim C about subject S. Therefore, C is true.You're imminently qualified to speak as a New Yorker. You're imminently unqualified to speak for all New Yorkers. Not every New Yorker shares your "stiff upper lip" philosophy of intestinal fortitude. Taking reasonable precautions isn't "cowering" as much as its good common sense. If Cuomo, DeBlasio, the NYPD and other law enforcement agencies were to simply say, "Well, at least it wasn't as bad as 9/11" and go back to business as usual, they would look like fools because quiet as its kept there are New Yorkers who would very much like to hurt and kill and terrorize other New Yorkers.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 10:05:54 GMT -5
I am qualified, as one who was out and about in New York the afternoon and night after the attack and in the days thereafter, hanging out with fellow New Yorkers, etc., to observe that New York didn't slow its roll one bit. The parade was as huge and as festive as ever. The subways were as crowded as always. People were talking Halloween, not the attack. I don't know anyone in New York who is changing their life one notch, even temporarily, because of this attack. In fact, the crowd I run with is griping about the concrete barriers they are putting on the bike path, which are a serious pain in the ass to bike around. If anything, I feel like an attack is somewhat LESS likely than usual right now, simply because the police presence is ramped up. That seems to be the general feeling, from my discussions with fellow New Yorkers. I'll be sure to point it out the next time you talk about the feelings of Black people generally rather than just yourself as an individual. ETA: Heh. New York at its best, squabbling over the concrete barriers on the bike lane. www.westsiderag.com/2017/11/03/city-and-state-install-concrete-barriers-next-to-hudson-river-bike-path-after-attack There's like one person (I know him and he does not use the path) saying "oh, good, this is the right response". And twenty something people saying the response sucks. Ah, New York. (The third and fourth photos in the article show the concrete barriers they've put up. They're freaking huge. Given the number of people who use the bike path and the narrowness of the openings bikers now need to navigate, I think they're pretty likely to cause accidents. The second picture shows the bollard things a lot of us are advocating for them to put up instead. Not a lot of (or any) hand-wringing about feeling unsafe on the bike path because of terrorists.)
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 3, 2017 15:41:08 GMT -5
I am qualified, as one who was out and about in New York the afternoon and night after the attack and in the days thereafter, hanging out with fellow New Yorkers, etc., to observe that New York didn't slow its roll one bit. The parade was as huge and as festive as ever. The subways were as crowded as always. People were talking Halloween, not the attack. I don't know anyone in New York who is changing their life one notch, even temporarily, because of this attack. In fact, the crowd I run with is griping about the concrete barriers they are putting on the bike path, which are a serious pain in the ass to bike around. If anything, I feel like an attack is somewhat LESS likely than usual right now, simply because the police presence is ramped up. That seems to be the general feeling, from my discussions with fellow New Yorkers. What number constitutes "the general feeling" of your fellow New Yorker? One? A half-dozen? A few hundred? Half-a-million? Frankly, I'm somewhat skeptical the general feeling of your fellow New Yorkers runs beyond however large or small the numbers of the crowd you run with. Good. You do that. Alas, the Sadness of First World Problems.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 15:48:22 GMT -5
Henceforth, there will not be a post where you purport to speak for the experiences, the feelings, or the desires of Black people other than yourself as an individual where I shall fail to point it out. Though I fear it will get very repetitive for the rest of the forum.
I'm betting it's pretty obvious to everyone except you that I pointed to the bike path barrier article not to whine about the barriers, but as evidence that New Yorkers generally are pretty much going forward worrying about their everyday "first world issues" (even when it pertains to the very place where the terrorist incident occurred) rather than crying about how scared they are about another attack. You don't bitch about concrete barriers on a bike path if you are clutching your pearls in terror.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 16:19:56 GMT -5
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Post by nighttimer on Nov 3, 2017 17:47:52 GMT -5
Henceforth, there will not be a post where you purport to speak for the experiences, the feelings, or the desires of Black people other than yourself as an individual where I shall fail to point it out. Though I fear it will get very repetitive for the rest of the forum. As repetitive as you telling everyone you live in NYC? As repetitive as you boasting how you speak for all New Yorkers? Newsflash: It's already very repetitive. Of course there's a very simple way to ameliorate your fears about me purporting to speak for the experiences, the feelings or the desires of Black people other then myself. Invite more Black people to join the board. Problem solved. A hasty generalization is a general statement without sufficient evidence to support it and you have provided none beyond your own personal perspective and limited experiences. What happened Tuesday could easily happen again or is it your contention it could not? What is obvious to "everyone" in the thread (everyone being the four other participants) isn't necessarily obvious to everyone.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 3, 2017 18:05:52 GMT -5
I don't think Cass was saying she was speaking for all NYer's but rather herself and her general sense of what other's around her feel.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 18:10:36 GMT -5
My point, as I've said more than once, is pretty much exactly the opposite. Maybe if you actually listened instead of attacking and ranting, posters wouldn't have to repeat themselves. As I noted, New Yorkers, especially since 9/11, ALWAYS know another attack can easily happen. Indeed, they know that it WILL happen, and happen again, since we are pretty much the ideal target. Maybe it will happen in ten minutes, maybe not until next year, but it will happen. We are densely packed with people. We are an island. We are a powerful financial center. Our city has major symbolic significance. We are nearly impossible to fully protect, given our enormous subway system, etc. And now it's the unpopular president's hometown. If you are a terrorist looking for a target, we are ideal and we know it. One well-done attack could take out way more people and real estate than in most places. And we've already seen them take out a couple thousand people and an iconic landmark in a single horrifying morning (not to mention some more minor attacks and attempts since). Any given morning, there could be a bomb or toxic gas in the subway. Some morning, there will be, because it is a really easy target. And yet I must ride it if I am to live here. This is the reality we live with every day. It was no more true on November 1 than it was any other day this year or last year or next year. And knowing it, we have a couple of choices. Move out, live in eternal fear, or accept the reality and focus on our first world problems and things we maybe can actually do something about. Those who stay and call themselves New Yorkers tend to accept the reality. Especially those of us (like me) who were here for 9/11. It's absolutely adorable that you are trying to school me on attitudes about terrorism in New York. ETA: We've had a lot of incidents of cars driving on sidewalks and killing pedestrians, actually, sometimes deliberately, though it isn't always called terrorism. A teenage girl was killed not long ago by one such driver, in fact. I don't necessarily take it for granted cars will stay in the road -- but I'm no less aware of feeling that today than I was last week. And sure, I can't speak for every human living in New York, but I can say that's certainly the sense I have generally from living here, talking to and observing people, and, oh, using that very bike path. It's what everyone I know is saying. It's what seemed to be the spirit emanating from the hordes of costumed revelers on Halloween night, as I observed and as noted in one article I posted. It's evidenced by the fact we're going forward with having some 50,000 people running 26.3 miles in the streets on Sunday, less than a week after the attack. And I think it's amply evidenced by the petty grumbling about the bike lane barriers in the other article I posted. People are more occupied with that than they are about the likelihood of another attack on the bike path. So New York to bitch about that. As DiBlasio and Cuomo have both noted, New Yorkers take a certain pride in this attitude. It's not new. What is it you have again to support your point? Your wife is worried? Though that said, I'm not entirely sure what your point even is except "YOU'RE WRONG, CASSANDRA!" ETA: I don't particularly worry about it when I travel, either (though of course I don't go to actual war zones). A terrorist could get me in another place, too -- though it is infinitely more likely I'll get killed by something else. I could be at a music festival in Vegas, or a nightclub in Orlando, or a Christmas fair in Germany or strolling in the South of France. Or biking on the west side. Or sitting at my own desk in a skyscraper sipping coffee. or whatever it is might miss me and get that poor tourist from Norway standing next to me. Safe spaces don't really exist, especially in New York, but really anywhere, and whatever is going to happen, it probably isn't going to be something you're expecting. After 9/11, we cannot help but be hyperaware of that. It doesn't more random and unexpected than sitting in your high-rise office on a beautiful morning and getting hit by an exploding airplane. In fact -- that fear, that uncertainty, that lack of control, is exactly what terrorists want us to feel. They want us to go into panicked lockdown. They want us to be paralyzed. So I say fuck them. Ask 1000 New Yorkers while you are here, and I'll bet most of them come out with something similar. The thing that I think New Yorkers tend to have more than Americans on average generally do when it comes to terrorism is a certain fatalism -- a sense that there really isn't shit you can do about it. It's gonna happen, maybe to you but probably not. When we took precautions on planes, terrorists shifted to trucks. If we take precautions there, they'll do something else. You can go crazy thinking about how you could just be sitting at your desk 50 floors up and see a plane heading right at you, or you can realize that yes, that bolt of lightning could hit any time or never, and there is very little point in wringing your hands worrying about what you cannot control. It's no more or less likely today than yesterday or tomorrow -- and actually pretty unlikely overall that you will be a victim. Either way, not much you can do but keep on living. I think in some places, at least in America, people are more likely to tell themselves that they can be safe if they just avoid the spots where unsafe things have happened, or guard against the kinds of things that have occurred. (Certainly that is the attitude many of my relatives back home and friends elsewhere have.) But I think by and large New Yorkers overall, as a group, feel that way that less than most Americans do -- certainly when it comes to terrorism. Otherwise, frankly, we couldn't live here and we sure as hell could never use the subway.
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Post by Vince524 on Nov 3, 2017 18:17:40 GMT -5
And for the record, I'm not speaking for all Collin's Gate members.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 19:12:58 GMT -5
And for the record, I'm not speaking for all Collin's Gate members. You can speak for me any time.
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Post by Christine on Nov 3, 2017 20:12:59 GMT -5
I think the truth about "New Yorkers" is probably more like, the truth about Americans, and possibly about human beings.
Yes, there are going to be be people who give a hearty "fuck you" in the face of terrorism. I'm reminded of the pics of people flipping the bird at the building where the Vegas shooter was, while he was still shooting.
Also, for all the people who stay home, because they are afraid--irrationally or not--there are going to be at least as many who might not have shown up but now do to make a statement.
I don't know that NY'ers are special in this regard. Some people are overly afraid, some people aren't afraid enough, generally speaking.
The other thing to consider is that this particular incident is being reported as a "lone-wolf" sort of thing, and that appears accurate. If this were a pattern of events, I think everyone, including NY'ers would be taking more precautions. That would be a very human reaction. No one is exempt from fear.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 20:26:36 GMT -5
I think the fact that this appears to be a lone wolf certainly adds to the "keep on plugging" attitude. And sure, if there were a particular pattern like, I dunno, a terrorist who only shot brunettes, I imagine people would take to wearing wigs.
But the fact remains, even on Halloween night, the streets were full and I've met no one then or since who is freaking out. The only people I've seen wringing their hands are online, and from somewhere other than New York.
Which was in fact my original point. This incident didn't make New York scream for extreme vetting and travel bans. We moved on. The hand-wringing over this terrorist attack and how we need extreme measures to keep us safe is coming from people elsewhere.
And that has been the case since 9/11.
And I submit that the fact that New York is quite possibly the most ideal target for an attack anywhere, and that everyone who lives here knows it and is accustomed to living with that knowledge, tends to foster a certain stoicism overall.
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Post by Christine on Nov 3, 2017 20:39:57 GMT -5
I think the fact that this appears to be a lone wolf certainly adds to the "keep on plugging" attitude. And sure, if there were a particular pattern like, I dunno, a terrorist who only shot brunettes, I imagine people would take to wearing wigs. That's adorable. But no, that is not the sort of pattern I was referring to. As far as I can tell, there isn't even an "NYC" pattern. The point is, if there were a pattern -- targeting NYC, targeting Central Park, targeting NYC in Central Park on Wednesdays -- most people would probably adjust their schedules, New Yorkers or not. I commend all the people you met who came out and did not subsequently freak out. Indeed, and that sort of outcry is misguided at best, and racist at worst. I don't think anyone here has called for extreme vetting or travel bans, unless I missed it. So is Boston. So is Orlando.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 3, 2017 20:51:58 GMT -5
No, actually. Boston, Orlando, and Vegas, while attacks happened there, and yes, could happen again, and sure, an attack could happen in the little town my mom lives in, too, those places are not overall as vulnerable for future attacks, terrorist or otherwise, as New York is, for the reasons I gave above.
First, because we are so concentrated -- if your goal is to kill and affect as many as possible, you cannot beat New York.
Second, the densest part, Manhattan, is an island, accessible only by bridges and tunnels, which themselves are vulnerable to attack, and which in effect make evacuating in the event of disaster a nightmare.
Third, we have a huge underground transportation system that everyone uses and that is impossible to secure.
Fourth, because we are the financial heart of the country -- an attack that hits wall street hits the entire country.
Fifth, because New York is in many ways a symbol of the U.S. to many.
Name me another place that meets all those criteria. I'll wait.
Even before we became an unpopular president's hometown, we couldn't be beat as an attractive target, and one where its citizens would be particularly vulnerable if hit. That was all true long before 9/11.
We (meaning all of us at TCG and everyone in the country) could all potentially be victims of a terrorist attack. Probably none of us will be. The one thing I claim for New Yorkers is not so much outstanding bravery but rather a certain resignation to the inevitably of attacks, both because of 9/11 and because the attractiveness of our city as a target.
But hey, on the attitudes of New Yorkers and how they are thinking and feeling, or the effect of having witnessed a major terrorist attack and lived through its effects on your city, hey, I give -- you and nighttimer have your finger on that pulse way more than I do. And clearly, you also have a clearer sense of what it was like here on Halloween night than I do.
ETA:
All that said, it's actually extremely unlikely that ANY of us will be involved in a terrorist attack. For that reason, taking aside having accepted that it could happen, and that living here makes it more likely to happen, I personally really don't worry about it at all, right after this particular attack or otherwise. I'm way more worried about getting hurt by a texting motorist as I cross the street or a bicycle messenger guy speeding down the sidewalk to deliver a pizza.
So just speaking for me personally, I had a "oh, that's terrible news, geez, I was right there yesterday, oh, those poor victims, good, they got the guy, but geez what a tragedy," And that was it for my worrying.
Such seemed to be the case among all my acquaintances, but hey, I defer to nighttimer and Christine.
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Post by Christine on Nov 3, 2017 21:20:20 GMT -5
You are the only one here who has claimed to have her finger on the pulse of New Yorkers, as well as taken offense that anyone could doubt you.
I think the general claim that "NYC is the greatest target for terrorists" as a premise for NYC'ers being "the most stalwart ever" is because of 9/11, but it's not borne out by what's happened since then.
The reality, played out in actual terrorist acts over the last 16 years, is that terrorists strike where they can, where they have an opportunity. Yes, they look for dense populations, but they don't hold out and bide their time for the most dense population of NYC. Sometimes it's a marathon in Boston. Sometimes it's a gay club in Orlando. This time it was a bike path in NYC. I would call that random, as opposed to NYC being a "target." MMV.
ETA: re your edits: You seem to be claiming that NYC is not only the most dangerous place in the country--and everyone knows this--but also that no one who lives in NYC has a worry in the world, because NYCers are just, I guess... special.
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