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Post by nighttimer on Feb 22, 2018 7:44:37 GMT -5
Sorry, Don, can't agree. I know gun folks like their toys but enough is fucking enough. We don't need to fix everything in the world before considering if maybe, just maybe, it should be wee bit harder for civilians to lay hands on military weapons. Do you suppose these new laws will be applied as rigorously in the gated communities as in the inner cities? Do you suppose they will be applied with the same regard for the rights of innocents in the inner cities as in the gated communities? Or will they lead to more no-knock raids and more Eric Garners? If a car is rusting, spraying more paint over the rust won't help. You've got to deal with the rust first. When Eric Garner was killed by the NYPD in 2014, he was on the receiving end of a police-administered illegal chokehold, not a bullet fired from an AR-15.Bit of a difference between an act of police brutality and a vicious plot to slaughter schoolkids and teachers. If a comparison has nothing to do with the topic, it's probably a useless tangent. Don't drag Mr. Garner's murdered Black body into a pointless aside about your loathing for new gun laws. It's tasteless and its exploitative.
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Post by Don on Feb 22, 2018 8:25:07 GMT -5
Oh, FFS. If Eric Garner had been a well-dressed white guy selling loosies on Fifth Avenue he would have never been hassled, let alone killed.
The point was about selective law enforcement. If you choose not to see that, it's on you.
Interesting interpretation of a suggestion that existing laws should be enforced, and enforced evenhandedly, before piling more laws on the books to be ignored when it suits the powers that be to ignore them.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 11:36:05 GMT -5
This is not an "or" or "but first" situation. This is an "and" situation.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 22, 2018 12:50:43 GMT -5
I get what Don is saying. We have laws to deal with what happened here and the FBI seems to have failed. So we should address that. If we can't, then new laws are just being added to be seen as 'doing something' which doesn't usually end well.
However, we've had enough of these where we should be able to have a discussion about what new laws or regulations can prevent this from happening. Or give more tools to combat it. They won't do any good if they're not enforced, but we can have that conversation.
Eric Garner's death seems like a reach here, since he wasn't shot, and his death was at the hands of police. It's just unrelated to this. So while I get what Don was saying, I don't think Mr. Garner's death was the best way of saying it.
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Post by prozyan on Feb 22, 2018 12:57:16 GMT -5
I too get Don's point.
I think the best law to add would be to charge those indirectly responsible. There are reports that Cruz broke at least three laws in obtaining his firearms. The people who supplied the firearms in those cases should be charged. There are reports someone in the FBI broke protocol. That person should be found and charged.
There are situations in which a bartender can be held responsible for the harm and damage caused by another person's DUI. I don't understand why shootings should be any different.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 13:05:51 GMT -5
I absolutely think we need to enforce and strengthen existing laws. I am all in favor of going after those whose irresponsible behavior enables attacks.
But I think we also need to take a hard look at why individual citizens need assault rifles to begin with.
The fact is, such shootings have taken place when all gun laws were obeyed.
The fact is, countries with gun control have a far, far, lower incidence of shootings, even after you take population size into account.
The fact is, MOST Americans favor more restrictions, and gun experts think they'd be effective.
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Post by Vince524 on Feb 22, 2018 13:06:35 GMT -5
I too get Don's point. I think the best law to add would be to charge those indirectly responsible. There are reports that Cruz broke at least three laws in obtaining his firearms. The people who supplied the firearms in those cases should be charged. There are reports someone in the FBI broke protocol. That person should be found and charged. There are situations in which a bartender can be held responsible for the harm and damage caused by another person's DUI. I don't understand why shootings should be any different. Charging might be, I repeat, might be, a step too far. It would depend on what they did. Did they have any foreknowledge. We don't want to get to a point where we charge someone for human mistakes where there a levels of checks so that other abuse their authority to CYA.
On the other hand, certainly someone should lose their job.
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Post by nighttimer on Feb 22, 2018 13:21:27 GMT -5
Oh, FFS. If Eric Garner had been a well-dressed white guy selling loosies on Fifth Avenue he would have never been hassled, let alone killed. The point was about selective law enforcement. If you choose not to see that, it's on you. But Eric Garner wasn't a well-dressed White guy selling loosies on Fifth Avenue was he? He was 6'2" and 300 lbs of big scary Black man and he was hassled and he was killed. You like your hypotheticals and mixed-up metaphors Garner's miserable fate doesn't have a fucking thing to do with Parkland or Columbine or Sandy Hook or any other school shooting, but they're all merely cannon fodder for your tiresome anti-governmental zealotry. If your point was about selective law enforcement, you made it poorly by farting out a total non sequitur. You also dragged a dead man into a discussion despite it having no correlation. You don't see that because you choose not to see that and that's ALL on you. I get what Don is saying. We have laws to deal with what happened here and the FBI seems to have failed. So we should address that. If we can't, then new laws are just being added to be seen as 'doing something' which doesn't usually end well. However, we've had enough of these where we should be able to have a discussion about what new laws or regulations can prevent this from happening. Or give more tools to combat it. They won't do any good if they're not enforced, but we can have that conversation. Eric Garner's death seems like a reach here, since he wasn't shot, and his death was at the hands of police. It's just unrelated to this. So while I get what Don was saying, I don't think Mr. Garner's death was the best way of saying it. It's not a reach. It's an irrelevance and a damned offensive one.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 14:03:44 GMT -5
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Post by prozyan on Feb 22, 2018 14:10:11 GMT -5
A leg bone will stop a 9mm. A 5.56 fired from an AR-15 will literally disintegrate 3" of that same bone. Just turn it to dust.
An AR 15 is essentially an M16A2 without the burst fire option. It is a ridiculous weapon that has zero practical use outside competition shooting.
Editing to add:
I have been highly trained in weapons. I rated "expert" in both rifle and pistol each year I served in the Marines. I have difficulty hitting a target at 50 yards with a handgun. I can put a 5 shot grouping within a 3" circle at 1000 yards with an AR 15. Just something to think about.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 14:24:18 GMT -5
Dear people who care about the future of the Republican party:
I suggest you tell your representatives and your right-wing media to stop criticizing, belittling, patronizing, insulting, condescending to, being suspicious of, ignoring and/or attacking those Parkland kids and their families right this fucking second. Stop them from hinting they are actors or were coached.
Whether you agree with them or not, they are heroic and overwhelmingly sympathetic to the vast majority of us.
The conservative/Republican/alt-right figures trying to turn the heart-felt actions of these kids and their families into an attack on the left, on mainstream media, etc.? Yeah, it's backfiring, bigly. It's not just the left who thinks it's gross, nor even just current voters. It's a whole generation of kids who will be voting soon.
Hey, I don't give a crap. I think the GOP needs to be thoroughly fumigated, and is currently ensuring that it will happen. But if YOU give a crap, you might want to speak up.
Sincerely,
CassandraW
ETA:
P.S.-- They won't listen to me. They'll just sneer at me as a libtard or a Deep State traitor or whatever. But if you are a registered Republican, just maybe they'll listen to you.
ETA:
The president's son, for example. That would be a place to start.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 14:41:39 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 16:10:54 GMT -5
As an aside, it is mind-boggling to me that we deem 18-20 year-olds too young and irresponsible to handle drinking a beer, yet many states let them buy assault rifles.
We are fucked up when it comes to guns, people.
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 16:38:17 GMT -5
Ooh, burn!
The NRA tweeted:
Awesome Parkland kid tweeted:
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Post by Deleted on Feb 22, 2018 18:50:29 GMT -5
A leg bone will stop a 9mm. A 5.56 fired from an AR-15 will literally disintegrate 3" of that same bone. Just turn it to dust. An AR 15 is essentially an M16A2 without the burst fire option. It is a ridiculous weapon that has zero practical use outside competition shooting. Editing to add: I have been highly trained in weapons. I rated "expert" in both rifle and pistol each year I served in the Marines. I have difficulty hitting a target at 50 yards with a handgun. I can put a 5 shot grouping within a 3" circle at 1000 yards with an AR 15. Just something to think about. So. I gather Trump's idea of arming all the teachers with handguns isn't likely to work out so well, huh? (I'm just kidding. I think it's a crazy idea for about a thousand reasons -- safety, liability, financial... I mean, we can't afford pencils and pay raises, but we can afford this? What if a student gets hold of teacher's gun? What if teacher shoots someone by accident? What if first responders shoot teacher? Do we really expect teachers to have shootouts with killers armed with assault weapons? Seriously, seriously -- What. The. Fuck.)
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