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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 9:41:02 GMT -5
As a lawyer, I respect the law. I do, however, think there's a problem here in saying "it's teh law!" when i's a matter of fairly arbitrary deadlines and rules may result in tens of thousands of uncounted legitimate votes.
There's also a problem when candidates in the election are actually in the government and have some control over the process. It would way too easy to create a situation where there's a mammoth snarl-up, thousands of uncounted or miscounted or lost votes, and then say "oh, well, too bad, here's this legal deadline--guess we have to toss those votes!" And even if we assume the best of intentions, the actions of such officials inevitably look hinky, desperate, and corrupt.
I think counting all legitimate votes and making sure you got it as close to right as you can should be the priority. I am not a Florida law expert, but I willing to be that there are legit ways to extend deadlines and incorporate necessary procedures here.
ESPECIALLY because Scott is a candidate here, he should be emulating Ducey as hard as he can, IMO.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 10:53:21 GMT -5
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Post by robeiae on Nov 11, 2018 11:26:12 GMT -5
I think counting all of the votes should be a priority, too. But let's be clear here: for whatever reasons, that apparently wasn't the priority of Broward County officials, as compared to the rest of the State. Not the counting part, nor the getting it right part. In and of itself, this creates all kinds of uncertainty, which those same officials did little to alleviate. As I said upthread, I don't know that we can be certain--faced with all of these failings--that Broward has counted all the votes or has counted all of them correctly. You know, Miami-Dade officials have already ordered extra machines from other States for the recount, to make sure it's done on time, as required by law. I think it would a good bet that Broward hasn't done the same, or at least didn't do it in a timely manner. Voting is an integral part of our system, obviously. And how votes are collected and counted has to be done in a way that makes citizens confident in the process. I don't feel confident here, at all. Honestly, I'm just about at a point where all of the results in Broward should be tossed and the whole thing should be done, again. Officials in Broward should all be dismissed and replaced with people for other counties. That's really the only way to be sure. Of course, that would fuck over a lot of people, who honestly tried to do their civic duty, so I guess it can't happen. Though to be fair, the voters in Broward do own this to some extent, as again they have repeatedly reelected Snipes to run the show.
And again, I do think this is all about incompetence. But I can't just dismiss the idea that something more was going on, is still going on.
As to the law, again these aren't new rules, new laws. I guarantee that if all of this was not in Broward, if it was in a heavily red county, both sides would be making exactly the opposite arguments that they are making now.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 11:40:00 GMT -5
Honestly, I'm just about at a point where all of the results in Broward should be tossed and the whole thing should be done, again. Officials in Broward should all be dismissed and replaced with people for other counties. This would be a royal pain in the ass, but it would be better, IMO, than just tossing a ton of votes when it might make the difference as to who won the elections. Not to mention the bad feelings doubt about the integrity of the elections would cause. And I'd say something should be done to encourage Broward employers to give their employees time to participate in such an election, and/or the election re/do done in such a way as not to make it impossible for working people to participate. If Mississippi can do a run-off, surely it could be done in Broward County. It's obviously not ideal to do this, but given the way things have gone down, I think it's fair to say a lot of people in both parties currently have serious doubts about the integrity of this election. This isn't something that happened all over the country, and it isn't something that should ever happen, so I'm really not concerned about setting an impossible precedent. I'm more concerned with pushing districts to ensure that elections are done right the first time so that we can have some confidence they were done right. However much c.e. might be sitting there thinking "the Dems are trying to steal the election with fake ballots!", I can assure you I am sitting here saying "the GOP officials tried and are continuing to try to disenfranchise a ton of legit Dem voters!" Neither should happen. If the election needs to be done again, it does. The same may be true in Georgia, where Kemp engaged in some (IMO) truly seedy actions to ensure his election. Arizona, I will trust, even if the votes still being counted take a turn McSally's way. That's because Ducey and the AZ secretary of state have given me some peace that they are doing things right. ETA: And let me be clear -- I don't want fraudulent votes to be counted either, to the extent they exist. But I don't want perfectly legit votes thrown out because of the incompetence (if not chicanery...) of election officials.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 12:19:21 GMT -5
On a different topic, this is striking: The GOP is rapidly becoming the party of older white men, and that's not going to change, IMO, while Trump and Trumpism prevails.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 13:31:31 GMT -5
At the risk of invoking the head-shaking of nighttimer and prozyan, I shall note that Jeff Flake is also doing things right when it comes to the Arizona count.
The unanimous voice of Arizona leaders standing up for the fairness of their electoral process -- not only ensuring that it IS fair, but assuring the public that it is fair -- is incredibly important not just to Arizona but to our republic and to democracy.
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Post by prozyan on Nov 11, 2018 13:45:42 GMT -5
I won't shake my head about Flake's tweet. To borrow a line from a movie, Flake "has a purty mouth". He always says the "right" thing. He is very good at talking the talk.
His problem comes when its time to walk the walk.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 14:16:46 GMT -5
I won't shake my head about Flake's tweet. To borrow a line from a movie, Flake "has a purty mouth". He always says the "right" thing. He is very good at talking the talk. His problem comes when its time to walk the walk. I don't disagree when it comes to a lot of things. But here, talking the talk is actually pretty important, and I think all that is going to be necessary in this particular instance. The fact that Arizona officials, including Flake, are doing so is pretty much silencing and marginalizing those who foam at the mouth to delegitimize the tight results, including the POTUS. Here he is again, half an hour or so. Indeed, all that pretty talking the talk from Flake, Ducey, et al. is likely what is going to prevent anyone from needing to walk the walk, for this particular purpose. Now when it comes to protecting the Mueller investigation...
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 16:03:00 GMT -5
For a guy who's sure he and his party got the most lawful votes, Scott sure doesn't act like it.
I wonder if Rubio has a Bible verse supporting disenfranchisement.
(I confess that on occasion I pelt Rubio with Bible verses on Twitter when he supports something Jesus would hate and then tweets Bible verses. I'm confident I can go head to head with him any day on the Bible verse front, and his continual self-satisfied piousness irritates me. Lots of good stuff in the Bible about welcoming foreigners, feeding the poor, condemning lying, etc.)
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Post by robeiae on Nov 11, 2018 16:23:00 GMT -5
Well to be fair here, Elias' statement is driven by his partisanship in the same way that's Rubio's are driven by his.
And again, both side are championing the points of view that benefit their sides the most. If it was a heavily Republican county going through this, we'd be seeing opposite points of view, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 11, 2018 17:53:41 GMT -5
Well to be fair here, Elias' statement is driven by his partisanship in the same way that's Rubio's are driven by his. And again, both side are championing the points of view that benefit their sides the most. If it was a heavily Republican county going through this, we'd be seeing opposite points of view, imo. Let's assume that to be true. That doesn't make both positions equally correct. IMO, the correct position is to count all legitimate, non-fraudulent votes (and yes, if any are fraudulent, to toss them), and both parties should be working together to that end. The only reason one would have for NOT wanting that result, IMO, is the belief that you'd lose if all legitimate votes were counted. And it is wholly inappropriate for Scott to be using his political power to benefit his candidacy. He should remove himself from this fracas -- he should have done so long ago. Whether an imaginary hypothetical Democrat might try to do the same is beside the point. It reeks to high heaven and, at the very least, gives an appearance of self-dealing and impropriety. ETA: Whether Elias is a partisan or not -- is what he's saying false? Scott is taking these actions, no?
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Post by robeiae on Nov 11, 2018 18:53:09 GMT -5
That doesn't make both positions equally correct. IMO, the correct position is to count all legitimate, non-fraudulent votes (and yes, if any are fraudulent, to toss them), and both parties should be working together to that end. The only reason one would have for NOT wanting that result, IMO, is the belief that you'd lose if all legitimate votes were counted. Well, part of the issue is what should be viewed as a legitimate, non-fraudulent vote. Again, I think Broward County has screwed up so royally that this is a question that is now difficult to answer. Palm Beach County has done poorly, as well. Just because side A says "hey, that vote shouldn't be counted," it doesn't follow that this is an attempt to get rid of a valid vote. But that becomes--in these sorts of situations--the auto-response from side B. In my view, both sides are taking the positions they are taking for political reasons, alone. No one really seems to give a shit about the integrity of the election. Because there's still no way around the reality: both Broward County and PAlm Beach County have violated Florida election law. And in so doing, they have made it impossible to trust what their officials are claiming now. Disagree. But if he did remove himself, who would take the lead? Pam Bondi, the AG of Florida, who is very close with Scott, to the point that she is basically one of his appendages? And what about Nelson? Do you think he should remove himself, as well? Regardless, it's a political contest; the principals don't just go off into a corner somewhere and wait it out. Did Al Gore--the sitting VP in 2000--remove himself from all of the post-election stuff? No, of course not. He and his people played an active role from start to finish (as did Bush and his crew). And part of why they don't just sit on the sidelines is that the people running the show in these counties are, in fact, partisans. That's our system, as much as it might seem to suck in the moment.
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Post by robeiae on Nov 11, 2018 19:00:28 GMT -5
And in line with what I said upthread, here goes Palm Beach: www.cnn.com/2018/11/11/politics/florida-recount-palm-beach-county/index.htmlI predict Broward County--which opted to take a day off before starting the recount, unlike Miami-Dade County--will have a similar announcement soon enough. FYI, here's a piece that notes Miami-Dade's preparations: www.miamiherald.com/news/politics-government/election/article221468340.htmlETA: And by the way, it's only fair to note that these recount problems are all the fault of Broward County. If Snipes had followed the law and actually made the total remaining votes to count available when required to do so, if she had updated totals when she was supposed to update totals, the reality of a recount would have been apparent the day after and the rest of the State--and Broward--could have begun preparations and then the actual count last week, giving them time to finish it by the deadline.
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 10:23:46 GMT -5
Trump calls for disenfranchising the mail-in votes of military personnel. Happy Veterans Day, America!
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Post by Deleted on Nov 12, 2018 10:58:08 GMT -5
Well. Voter participation WAS way up.
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