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Post by Amadan on Apr 9, 2018 11:54:53 GMT -5
If she was 100% certain the cops weren't going to arrest her kid, then at that point (given that serious mistakes have already been made to let it get to that point), she probably made the right choice.
I just don't see how (a) she could have been certain it wouldn't end badly; (b) this kid was able to get into his dad's apartment for the fifth time.
Maybe this was an act of desperation after having already screwed up the chance to use less severe interventions. I'm just saying, I sympathize with Don and Christine here, because like them I can easily envision involving law enforcement going very badly for a family in this situation.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 12:10:35 GMT -5
Derail/
I actually have a really nice NYC cop story I may as well tell here. Naturally, we all hear and deplore the bad stories, and rightly so. But there are good stories and good cops, too.
A few weeks ago, I was walking along Broadway and saw two cop cars and an ambulance clustered around a street corner, and at least half a dozen cops standing there. When I got closer, I saw that they were standing in a semi-circle around a large, shabby, middle-aged black man who was obviously either on some kind of substance or else had some kind of mental illness. He was talking to one of the cops (who was standing right in front of him) in a kind of disoriented fashion and staggering a little. The other cops were a few steps away. No weapons out. No yelling.
Okay. My first thought, naturally, is Erol Garner. I decided a nice white woman lawyer might be a handy person to have around in case things went sideways, so I put off my errand and hung out on the corner. Two other black guys were standing nearby -- clearly they were watching too, and I asked them if they'd seen what the shabby guy had done (if anything). Turns out he'd been screaming at passersby and had hurled a couple of trash cans into oncoming traffic, nearly causing an accident. Someone had called 911.
The two guys I was chatting with had stopped for the same reason I did -- if there was going to be an Erol Eric Garner situation, they wanted to help or at least film it. But as it turned out, the cops didn't lay a hand on him. Instead, the cop talking to him had managed to calm him down.
As we watched, the shabby guy leaned against one of the cop cars. The white cop talking to him called to one of the other cops to get him a bottle of water at the bodega nearby. Which he did. The cop continued talking with him (he was calm now, though obviously out of it) as he drank the bottle of water, and convinced him he should come with them to get treatment at the hospital. The shabby guy agreed. He got voluntarily into the ambulance and off they went. And off all we spectators went, agreeing that it would be nice if more situations went this way. Clearly, whatever training that one cop got at talking people down was some pretty excellent training.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 15:20:44 GMT -5
As a side note, by the way --
I do not mean to dispute that a typical mother from the projects and your average mother of color wouldn't be more nervous about calling the police on her son (and understandably so). I agree with that. What interested me about it was that this mother of color obviously did NOT feel this way.
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Post by Vince524 on Apr 9, 2018 18:50:50 GMT -5
I just did catch up on this thread. Let me catch up.
I was in the no tattling column. That was then. I wasn't aware drinking and pot were involved. So there's that.
Calling the cops? Most cops like Mark said won't do anything bad. We hear about the bad ones, because their bad. Nobody makes headlines by doing their job, but it is a crap shoot. You don't know which kind of cop will show up, but as Cass said, Mom was there and talked to the cops in advance. I don't have an issue. I don't know that I'd recommend this, but it worked out, and hopefully mom understood the nuances.
Going forward, yes, the ex's need to have better communication and both should have keys to each other's place. Kid needs to not have free time on his hands for some time. School, work if he has it. Volunteer work. And if were my kid, urine tests. My kids knew if they ever did something like this, they'd be urine tested plenty. It wouldn't be me they'd have to fear, it'd be my wife.
Of course, my kids were never like that, and that's not me with my head in the sand. Daughter #1 has done a little underage drinking in college. She's always been honest, and has never gotten drunk or put her safety in danger.
Daughter # 2... well someday the Tardis will materialize out of nowhere, filled with puppies and she'll no longer be my little girl. Right now, I'm not worried.
(seriously, her one boyfriend in high school dressed like Dr. Who # 10. Or was it 11? Who wore the felt cap?)
BTW, in terms of calling the cops of family, I've done it. It was justified. I don't feel sorry. Personal story, and it wasn't something like this.
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Post by Vince524 on Apr 9, 2018 19:02:12 GMT -5
BTW, Cass, above were you think Eric Garner.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 9, 2018 19:19:29 GMT -5
BTW, Cass, above were you think Eric Garner. Heh. Yes. But I'm also a jazz fan!
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Post by Optimus on Apr 9, 2018 21:06:50 GMT -5
Kids acting shitty isn't always the result of some sort of fault of the parents. If so, society could "parent" its way out of drunk driving, gun crime, serial killers, rapists, and pretty much everything.
Sometimes kids are shitty because they're shitty, and even the best parenting can't really curb it.
I'm not saying that's the case here. I have no idea and neither does anyone else in this thread.
My only bone of contention here is when a kid is a bad person and the knee-jerk reaction is to blame the parents. Yes, there are horrible parents out there but that's not the only reason kids turn out bad. I would encourage anyone who immediately draws such an often false conclusion to go spend some time with kids who have been diagnosed with Oppositional Defiance Disorder or Antisocial Personality Disorder, or is just plain dumb and naive and is easily influenced by the wrong people.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 7:17:23 GMT -5
Agree. I've known great kids with shitty parents, and shitty kids with great parents.
I honestly think this dad handled the situation well back at Christmas. Clearly he read the kid the riot act and made the kid apologize to the neighbors. He's divorced and it was a bitter divorce, and he travels a lot for work, but I know he's actively involved in the kid's life and tries to set reasonable ground rules.
I don't know how the kid will turn out (this could be a bad phase or the kid could just be a bad egg), but from what I've seen the dad is a decent dad. Me as a teen, after being caught the first time, I never would have done it again. This kid is made of different stuff.
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Post by robeiae on Apr 10, 2018 7:38:43 GMT -5
You know, my initial comment on this thread was based on the poll being a one-off question re a single party where the kids actually tried to keep things quiet. We're quite aways from there, now. There's definitely a point--imo--where one needs to start tattling, as it were.
As to mom and the police, that question--consistent with some observations in this thread--is loaded, as it really does depend on personal experiences, prejudices, and assumptions. I think that if I were in the same situation as mom, however, I would turn to the cops, assuming this was an issue that I had already addressed with my kid (i.e. told him no more secret parties at dad's--or in my case mom's--no more going there at all, period). I understand why people wouldn't do it, to be sure, but I don't find it outrageous at all to turn one's kid into the police.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 7:51:01 GMT -5
Yup, things have definitely evolved. I started off the thread torn because I didn't see great harm in the kid having a couple friends there for a quiet evening of television watching, except for the fact he wasn't supposed to be there. Five increasingly problematic parties later, and with overhearing mom/police/kid in the hall, I'm in the "hell yes, Meanie Auntie Cass will get involved."
Dad will get a full report when he returns (I can add to mom's info-she may not be sure of the other parties), and my contact info to give to the mom.
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Post by Vince524 on Apr 10, 2018 11:12:26 GMT -5
Shitty parents can result in shitty kids, but I know people who came from shitty parent that turned out great. The reverse is true as well. Kids also sometimes do shitty things because they're kids. Doesn't mean they're destined to be shitty.
With the mom and dad being divorced, sounds like the kid saw openings to exploit and the parents didn't communicate enough to watch him. Kids will do that. Up to them to parent.
Hopefully this will be a wake up call for all of them.
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Post by Deleted on Apr 10, 2018 11:44:04 GMT -5
Well, they also had the difficulty that Dad gave the kid a key so he could come and go easily while he was staying with Dad. That would have been a perfectly fine idea if kid didn't misuse it and weren't willing to fib. The kid not having a key will mean that while he stays with Dad, he can't go out and come back unless Dad is in the apartment -- if Dad is still at work or needs to run errands, etc., the kid will have to wait outside or go to a friend's place. But I think that's what has to happen. At this point, if I were Dad, I wouldn't even lend kid a key while he was staying with me. Too easy for kid to run to a hardware store and have a copy made.
(I had my own key when I was still in grade school -- my mom was in graduate school, and of course dad worked, and often my brother and I got home from school before either of them did. I think I was ten or eleven at the time. But then, I didn't throw wild parties.)
I should also note -- the kid is apparently a very good student (per Dad). I can vouch for it that he's an exceptional piano player (was playing a classical piece one day and I thought it was a recording for a minute). And though some of his friends are rude, the kid's manner to adults is both polite and fairly sophisticated for a teenager. He even goes to church every week with either mom or dad, depending on whom he's staying with. (I'm not religious, and I turned atheist at 12, but before that I went to church every week with my parents. I don't think a kid being religious or not is an indicator of whether he's going to turn out well, but I do think a kid being brought weekly to a place of worship or any other wholesome family activity by his parents (e.g., a picnic, sporting event, whatever) is probably some evidence the parents are likely at least trying not to neglect/ignore him. And yes, I'm sure there are exceptions to that. Just saying -- this isn't a kid whose parents are oblivious to him.)
Though he is drinking and doing drugs, and I don't like the look of some of his friends, kid could yet turn out fine. Heck, I did some drinking in high school. I got it out of my system and I didn't turn into an alcoholic or anything. I think kid is at a very crucial moment here. Let's hope this somewhat extreme tactic wakes the kid (and his parents) up.
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Post by Deleted on May 8, 2018 20:53:04 GMT -5
So the dad got home from China at last (yes, these trips tend to be long), and I finally got a chance to talk to him yesterday. Of course, he was already aware his ex had called the police. Turns out, however, that he DID take away the kid's key last time. The little punk went to our building super, told him he'd lost his key and was supposed to be staying at the apartment, so the super lent him a key so kid could get it copied. Unfreaking believable -- and again, my biggest concern here is that this is apparently one devious kid, and one who is moreover a bit too talented at lying and conniving. I wasn't a saint or anything, but never in a million years would I have done something like that as a teen.
Anyway. The dad says his lease just came up for renewal and he's going to move. He wants to be further from his ex in a new place to which his kids will never get the keys. I can't say I blame him.
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Post by robeiae on May 9, 2018 7:40:25 GMT -5
The kid's a weasel, but it is possible that his parents are shitburgers, as well. One or both of them. Because at the end of the day, they seem to have neither the will nor the way to control/discipline their kid.
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Post by Vince524 on May 9, 2018 8:55:30 GMT -5
Also, doesn't seem to be enough cooperation between them.
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