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Post by Christine on Dec 18, 2016 20:39:34 GMT -5
I'd like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony. Regardless of who Miss Filopovic is, I find the piece emblematic of a more general point of view, a point of view of course that anyone can reasonably have, yet one that many feel the need to express constantly, as if it's cathartic. True enough, I don't have to read such pieces, and I could avoid social media altogether, or take the drastic step of unfriending/unfollowing people who are a part of the trend I'm seeing. But that's not my style. I'd rather talk about it and point out the problems I believe it is engendering, truth be told, because I think supposing that its above criticism is dragging down honest discussion across the board. Right now on places like Facebook, I'm finding it to be the case that any opinion offered on Trump, his actions, or anything related to him that isn't strongly critical often leads to immediate retaliation. It's not above criticism; it's just pointless to criticize, imo. Do you post your criticisms on Facebook, on their threads? If not (as I do not) why post it here? Do you think they might read them here? And do you think the posts you've made here would help them "see the light," were they to read them? Because honestly it all just kind of sounds like whining to me. The kind of whining I do in my own head but try (though fail at times) not to voice because it's pointless and I just sound like a whiner. ETA: my point is we should talk about issues, not how other people aren't doing so, or not doing so correctly, in our opinion. It's why I'm here, personally. Sorry if I seem like a jerk about it. :/
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Dec 18, 2016 20:53:29 GMT -5
I'd like to teach the world to sing, in perfect harmony. Regardless of who Miss Filopovic is, I find the piece emblematic of a more general point of view, a point of view of course that anyone can reasonably have, yet one that many feel the need to express constantly, as if it's cathartic. True enough, I don't have to read such pieces, and I could avoid social media altogether, or take the drastic step of unfriending/unfollowing people who are a part of the trend I'm seeing. But that's not my style. I'd rather talk about it and point out the problems I believe it is engendering, truth be told, because I think supposing that its above criticism is dragging down honest discussion across the board. Right now on places like Facebook, I'm finding it to be the case that any opinion offered on Trump, his actions, or anything related to him that isn't strongly critical often leads to immediate retaliation. It's not above criticism; it's just pointless to criticize, imo. Do you post your criticisms on Facebook, on their threads? If not (as I do not) why post it here? Do you think they might read them here? And do you think the posts you've made here would help them "see the light," were they to read them? Because honestly it all just kind of sounds like whining to me. The kind of whining I do in my own head but try (though fail at times) not to voice because it's pointless and I just sound like a whiner. ETA: my point is we should talk about issues, not how other people aren't doing so, or not doing so correctly, in our opinion. It's why I'm here, personally. Sorry if I seem like a jerk about it. :/ Honest Differences of opinion are necessary and should be the norm. Some will be hard to swallow, for all perspectives at some point. I'm going to mock Trump, or any politician, when handed the chance on a silver platter, and mocking the POTUS is a great American tradition. Eta: I'll also probably defend some of his positions, too, if I see some value.
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Post by Christine on Dec 18, 2016 21:17:10 GMT -5
Of course, looking at how others are perceiving reality can be part of understanding what's going on. Sometimes it's quite clear when someone's reality consists of distorted, false, or cherry-picked information; sometimes it's just a matter of different experiences, some of which might shed a useful light. And sometimes it takes a bit of work to sort out. I like to at least consider when my own reality might be distorted or missing something. And right now, when IMO a lot of people on both sides seem to be wallowing in a distorted view of reality in one way or another, I like to give some consideration to whether that's true, to what extent it's true, and what effect it is having. That's all well and good, but I think there's a difference between disagreeing with a specific opinion about a specific issue, and posting a single opinion piece to "showcase" how silly people are for being upset about Trump. How is this thread helpful? Newsflash: people are going to be upset about Trump as president for the next four years, regardless. Same as we can say to them, "get over it," I'm saying on this, "get over it." Because honestly, I seriously doubt this thread was about anything meaningful, other than to issue a verdict of "fangirling" and "narcissistic." In the instances where Rob and others have made the case for Trump/GOP decisions, such as Trump cabinet picks: That is focusing on the issues and countering possibly distorted views of reality in a meaningful way, imo.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 22:02:25 GMT -5
*gets into psychiatrist's chair with notepad* *strokes goatee*
I zee. Tell me, zen -- if you veel zis thread iz a vaste of time, vhy have you chosen to participate?
(Have had a glass or two of vine. Ze silly has come out for ze evening, and I fear zere is no putting it back again.)
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Post by Christine on Dec 18, 2016 22:37:31 GMT -5
Because I'm interested in this forum as a place for "thoughtful political discussion." I'm disappointed when particular threads seem unthoughtful.
I suppose you could say that I might take my disappointment and shove it somewhere.
At any rate, I'm invested enough to state my case on the matter.
*slugs some more of zee vine*
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 22:57:09 GMT -5
Zis zounds reazonable to me. Ve are a discussion forum. You are discussing.
*slugs vine*
In all seriousness, I think it's perfectly legitimate for Rob to raise the topic, and also for you to say "pfft, this topic gets us nowhere, so what's the point?"
We won't all find every topic equally worthy. Kanye West's political antics, for example, have an unhealthy fascination for me, but others are welcome to point out (quite correctly) that they are trivial in the greater scheme of things. Unless he gets appointed to Trump's cabinet, in which case we should worry.
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Post by Amadan on Dec 18, 2016 23:05:15 GMT -5
Okay, let me give it a shot.
The problem is that these "hand-wringing" articles seem to dominate some segments of the media, and they consist of little more than Millenials trying to come to grips with the fact that they lost. As if this is unprecedented, inexplicable, and unspeakable, that your side might lose an election.
Filipovic's article doesn't say anything. It's a paen to Michelle Obama, and an invitation for everyone to have another good cry over Trump's election, followed by a group hug. They're all trying to "process their trauma" rather than deal with a political setback and make plans for the future.
I really don't recall ever seeing anything like this. I saw a lot of conservatives who were really convinced that Romney was going to win in 2012, and yeah, they were kind of depressed and sullen when he didn't, but then they got back to complaining about everything Obama did. A lot of liberals were absolutely positive Bush could not possibly win in 2000, and again in 2004. They were crushed, but they acted like, well, a guy they didn't like had just won the presidency and now they had a lot of work to do.
This is different. Filipovic has contributed nothing to the discourse. She's just crying out for grief counseling.
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Post by Christine on Dec 18, 2016 23:25:54 GMT -5
Okay, let me give it a shot. The problem is that these "hand-wringing" articles seem to dominate some segments of the media, and they consist of little more than Millenials trying to come to grips with the fact that they lost. As if this is unprecedented, inexplicable, and unspeakable, that your side might lose an election. Disagree. This isn't about losing (though it was much more of a shock with the polls being so wrong), it is about Trump, of all people, winning. TRUMP. TRUMP. MY FUCKING GOD, TRUMP is going to be the President of the United States. Surely that doesn't not disturb you at least a little bit. I've accepted it and yet still at odd times I find myself shocked all over again. This is not Bush. This is not Romney. This is Donald J. Fucking Trump. This is not the sort of thing you get over quickly, while still hating it. This is some unpresidented fucking shit. See above. There's a reason why this is different. I think in time we'll all adjust, but I think a requisite of more time is justified. And then, yeah, we have a lot of work to do. And in fact, people are already doing it, and talking about it. Picking the article in the OP is in fact cherry picking. Plenty of people are posting articles about what they are doing and what needs to be done, from their standpoint. All the liberals aren't curled up in the fetal position.
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Post by Amadan on Dec 18, 2016 23:45:59 GMT -5
Trump may be "unpresidented," but how many times and for how long can columnists screech "OMG TRUMP"?
Yes, there are more thoughtful pieces out there than Jill "absence of hope" Filipovic's. But she represents a trend. The trend that makes stone-hearted bastards like me want to say "Get over it."
I'm really not sure what your objection to the thread is - that you don't think it's particularly meaningful to single out a dumb column for criticism? A lot of our threads are singling out something or other for criticism. That you don't think it's a trend? I disagree, and so does rob, apparently. That it's mean to Jill Filipovic? I think she has suffered worse criticism than people on a tiny message board saying she wrote a meaningless column.
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Post by Deleted on Dec 18, 2016 23:58:51 GMT -5
eta: You all have no idea how excited I am to have located popcorn-eating Jesus, loaded him to my photobucket account, and posted him here. My day has been worthwhile.
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Post by Christine on Dec 19, 2016 0:03:48 GMT -5
I don't think anyone is at this point "screech(ing) OMG TRUMP" (shaddup, my post doesn't count). Specific criticisms of him are mostly legit, imo. Articles like the OP are a bit of the hanging onto how horrible the idea of a Trump presidency is, yeah, but he's not even president yet - this is the interim. I'm guessing it will pass. There's no "trend" here, imo, other than the trend you want to see so that you can scoff at it.
My objection to the thread has been previously stated, but I'll state it again, as succinctly as I can: I don't think this entire discussion is helpful to anyone in any way. In the same way I'd feel that, had Clinton won, mocking or sneering at the despair of Trump supporters would have been helpful to anyone in any way.
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Post by Amadan on Dec 19, 2016 0:19:41 GMT -5
Damn, now I'm supposed to be helpful when I scoff at people?
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Post by Christine on Dec 19, 2016 0:29:02 GMT -5
Lol. I was actually thinking if people want to vent/scoff, they should vent/scoff. Just say you're venting/scoffing, and don't act like it's some sort of brilliant political insight. : P
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Post by Deleted on Dec 19, 2016 0:33:23 GMT -5
Pfft. That's no fun.
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Post by Don on Dec 19, 2016 7:31:51 GMT -5
As an old fart who's seen a wide range of these beauty contests, I've gotta agree with Amadan and Robovowels. The level of whining, pearl-clutching and hysteria is unpresidented this time around... but I think that's easily understandable.
1) Every election, government, and in particular the C-I-C, is considerably more powerful than the election before. It's insinuated itself into almost every aspect of our lives. Yes, you still have "free speech" as long as you speak appropriate words in a legally-designated "free speech zone," but calling this "the land of the free" when practically every aspect of your life is controlled by regulation is a friggin' joke, and most people feel that viscerally, even if they won't admit it to themselves. And the more authoritarian the government, the more the asshole at the top matters.
2) Every election, the Presidential candidates get worse; more power-hungry, more focused on the collective, less interested in overall outcomes than in identity politics, on both the left and the right. What I heard was "us vs. them" identity politics, backed up by a lot of bullshit promises that even those who voted for one of these idiots admit are most likely lies and not likely to be implemented. I heard neither mainstream candidate mention "liberty" or "individualism," or indeed, offer any economically-viable plans for the nation going forward. Yet people think their vote really matters and will shape the future of the country. Shit floats to the top in the cesspool that is Mordor on the Potomac.
3) Every election, society is much more complex. As "Future Shock" accelerates, changes come far, far too fast for a few hundred people concentrated in the richest area in the world, comfortably ensconced in the status quo, to make intelligent decisions over the direction of progress for over 300 million people living a vast array of lifestyles, with a vast spread of interests, abilities and incomes. Any decision made at that level is guaranteed to impact the economy, and therefore society, negatively over the long run, because innovation is the heart blood of any economy, and if you stifle innovation you condemn your children to a lower standard of living than you have enjoyed. It ain't rocket science. And that guaranteed negative impact means that every decision made in Mordor is going to eventually be unsatisfactory to the vast majority of voters. Thus the need for constant "reform" of broken programs.
Yet both political parties embody William F. Buckley's definition of conservative. "A conservative is someone who stands athwart history, yelling Stop, at a time when no one is inclined to do so, or to have much patience with those who so urge it." When Hillary and Trump are both for building economic walls around the country, stopping the progress of the sharing economy, and maintaining the status quo in the War on Drugs, there's no way to call either of them "progressive." Society is moving forward, despite both parties' attempts to choke it to death in its crib.
4) Because choices are accelerating much, much faster than politicians can make sense of them, ever-larger segments of society are slipping from the control of the political class. People in those segments are making their own decisions, rather than waiting for some member of the ruling class thousands of miles away to make the decision for them. And once those decisions are made, the political class spends countless hours trying to decide how to stuff the genie back into the bottle, while all across the country thousands are rubbing new bottles that are going to hatch new genies the political class has no idea how to deal with.
Combine an ever-more-powerful C-I-C, ever-less-sensible political candidates, and an ever-more-complex society, and it's no wonder that those who think this particular clown is more dangerous than the other particular clown that was running find it much more threatening than, say, when Nixon beat Humphrey.
If people in general ever realize that society <> government, the political class' goose is cooked.
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