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Post by celawson on Jan 21, 2017 21:15:12 GMT -5
Yes, it takes time and trouble and MONEY. And all three are valuable and limited commodities that could have been better spent on something more useful in a direct response to something tangible.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 21, 2017 21:16:26 GMT -5
We'll have to agree to disagree.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 21, 2017 22:00:04 GMT -5
And while not much is going to penetrate Trump's ego, I am betting this show of opposition might make some impression on others -- e.g , in Congress. It is one way (maybe the only way) of showing, right up front, that gobs of people stand ready to protest, and won't meekly stand by for whatever they care to shove down our throats. How will we know that it made a real impression, such as on Congress critters? For point of comparison, consider all of the actions taken to protest the SOPA and PIPA bills in 2011/2012. Congress critters who were supporting the bills actually changed their positions. That was effective protesting. And a good chunk of why it was effective was that it was against specific measures before Congress.
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Post by Don on Jan 22, 2017 8:17:24 GMT -5
But the hat, IMO, adds nothing -- and indeed, to the extent it does anything, takes it all down a peg. It's cutesty and icky at the same time. I'm in sympathy with their causes, by and large, and I think the hat is ridiculous. I can't imagine it helps move anyone or anything that needs to be moved. Intelligent argument about women's issues might help move someone's opinion. Looking silly could actually backfire. My gut feeling was definitely "backfire," but since I don't drag my knuckles any more, I passed the hat link along to some men who do, just to see. Yeah, backfire. Definitely backfire. ROFL backfire. Yes, it takes time and trouble and MONEY. And all three are valuable and limited commodities that could have been better spent on something more useful in a direct response to something tangible. That's the other backfire I'm hearing from the right (and from some libertarian feminists). This was a massive waste of resources for a "feel-good" moment, something the left excels at, and something that damned near the whole rest of the world recognizes as a nearly worthless skill of the political left. "They should do something useful, instead of just getting together to bitch and moan." (Not my words: Ed) A massive donation day to Planned Parenthood would have been far more practical than this, and might have even convinced some people that the demonstration was serious, rather than a "bitch session by the little ladies" as I heard one Neanderthal express it. I'm becoming more and more convinced that the left, as a whole, thinks the ONLY way to solve a societal problem is through government action, and now that they've lost all three branches, their only option is to protest. "Be the change you want to see in the world." Do you want a fully-funded Planned Parenthood, or coverage of your feel-good moment on the national news? You can't afford both. Funny how "Economics puts parameters on people's utopias," isn't it?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 8:55:26 GMT -5
But again, it's a false choice. One need not choose between this march and other actions. I disagree entirely that one must choose between this march and a fully-funded planned parenthood.
Let's assume this march in itself changes not a single mind on any issue. It probably won't. It has still accomplished something. It has stirred up a large number of people who, as Don has put it, have been sleeping for eight years (or grumbling quietly among friends without any action). They've mobilized. They've inspired one another and connected with each other. They've inspired some women like me, sitting at my desk. The women I know who participated found it a joyous, energizing experience. The sheer spectacle of them in photos was rather astonishing, at least to me.
I submit that makes them (and others) more likely to come together to fight against individual pieces of legislation they oppose, and more likely to write letters and send money for causes they care about.
I'll also add the march did no harm, as far as I've heard. I haven't read about any violence or vandalism. It was not an unruly rabble. I stay away from unruly rabbles that throw rocks and burn convenience stores, but I'd gladly join in protests like this.
[I suppose the pink pussy hats didn't hurt anyone, but they were stupid-looking and the idea behind them makes me roll my eyes, which is what makes me think they are counterproductive. There is majesty in millions of people marching and standing together. There is none in pink fuzzy hats with ears and a ludicrous name. I'm big on dignity, especially when it comes to protests, and I loathe pink cutesy-wootsey things and the word "pussy," so I have a bias here. I look at millions of people marching and say, "wow." I see pink pussy hats and say "ew. really?" But whatever. They're harmless enough, I suppose.)
There is no way I can think of to assess what effect, if any, this particular march had on any politicians. Perhaps none. But I think it did have an effect on a lot of us who are damn upset about Trump's plans, and have been feeling impotent and hopeless. It likely also put some backbone into politicians who don't like Trump's plans but are wavering on the political expediency of standing against them.
And I'll wager this --the opposition to Trump does not burn out in a month, leaving the anti-Trump faction grumbling and moaning impotently on their couches. This is a beginning of a movement, not mere post-election sour grapes. We'll have to wait and see if I'm right.
ETA:
And you know what? I have to disagree that Trump hasn't done anything yet. I hate pretty much everything he did and said during the transition, and most of the stuff he's signing as we speak. That's why the feeble "okay, I never liked him, but maybe he won't be so bad and he deserves a chance" feeling flickered out in me. Yeah, I really do think that (from my perspective) he's shaping up to be pretty bad.
I'm also happy to signal to the rest of the world that a fair number of Americans are not cheering about this guy, his wall around Mexico, his love of Duterte and Putin, etc. This march accomplished that, too.
ETA:
Another thing -- the participants weren't all far-fringy by any means. One of my best friends, a law firm partner, is a moderate with conservative economic leanings who sometimes votes Republican, and she marched.
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Post by Christine on Jan 22, 2017 9:12:36 GMT -5
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Post by Don on Jan 22, 2017 10:28:40 GMT -5
One must always choose. Resources expended for this march are no longer available to those who expended them for use in other, alternative ways. Those are sunk costs. The funds are no longer available to be donated to Planned Parenthood; those funds are now in the hands of others that may well have what they consider higher-utility plans for those funds.
It's fine to argue that this march had more value to women overall than had the same funds gone to Planned Parenthood, but there was plainly an economic choice made in favor of form over substance.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 10:37:30 GMT -5
Don, do you feel the same way about Occupy Wall Street? The Tea Party?
ETA:
For the record, I didn't think the former was particularly effective. It served mostly as an irritant to many of the 99% here in NYC, since they blocked subway entrances, littered, urinated all over the place, and made noise during all hours of the night. From the perspective of many of us, it was mainly a chaotic camp-out party for people with little else to do. The 1% didn't give a crap. The only lasting contribution I can see is the overuse of the term "1℅", of which I have long been heartily sick.
Anecdotally, I did not find them inspiring. But I know Don did. I, on the other hand, find the women's march inspiring.) And I fail to see why the women's march is a waste of time and money, but Occupy Wall Street was not.
The Tea Party was very effective indeed.
I think the ultimate effectiveness of the women's march is going to depend on whether it helps to bring together, inspire, and further a Tea Party-like movement on the left and that portion of the center that opposes Trump. I think it very well might.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jan 22, 2017 11:01:28 GMT -5
Oh, I dunno. Bonnie had a great time, made new friends and feels better knowing there are plenty of good people out there.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 11:04:22 GMT -5
Oh, I dunno. Bonnie had a great time, made new friends and feels better knowing there are plenty of good people out there. Yep. This is what I'm hearing. Along with some fresh optimism that determined opposition can make a difference. That's not nothing. And it isn't sour grapes.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 13:34:09 GMT -5
Heh. Just saw a dear little baby wearing a pink hat with ears. My first thought: "disgusting! Politicizing their baby and associating her with an ugly name for genitalia!" Second thought:. " Or it might just be a little girl's hat. Damned if I know."
Anyway. Baby was cute.
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Post by Rolling Thunder on Jan 22, 2017 13:55:49 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 14:10:54 GMT -5
RT, where do you find these things? WHY do you find these things?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 15:33:48 GMT -5
If you read the whole thread, you'll find I'm 100% on board with the march. It's just the damn hats that make me roll my eyes. The power, IMO, was in millions massing and protesting. I don't see how the hats add a damn thing. To me they seem as futile as an online petition or a facebook post, or more so.
And I really don't see how vulgarity fights vulgarity. I have no desire to become like the thing I despise.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 22, 2017 16:00:08 GMT -5
True enough, the hats are not as vulger as Trump. So few things are. On the other hand, one of the few things I can say in Trump's favor is that he is not cutesy wootsey. The hats, on the other hand...
At any rate, be all that as it may, I shall leave the fuzzy pink hats with ears to the under-five set. I'm up for marching, though (would have joined yesterday if I didn't have work I needed to wrap up).
I'm told the march in New York was more like a "stand" by the way -- there were too many people to move. That's impressive.
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