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Post by Vince524 on Sept 24, 2017 15:36:32 GMT -5
Yes, but keep in mind he's a person who didn't even vote. He may have a point well worth considering, but if the way you make your point is easily misunderstood, maybe you should rethink it. Many see his taking a knee as being very close to giving the flag the finger.
Let's also remember, the NFL has fined players for dancing in the end zone, and many people openly mocked Tim Tebow for kneeling in prayer.
So, I'm not all a flush with support for the take a knee movement that's spreading. Many are doing it as a snub towards Trump, who deserves it. But if they insult a soldier who can't stand anymore, to the kids of one who can't watch football with their father, then it's just no big deal to them? They may not mean to insult them, but they are.
He still has the right to take the damn knee.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 15:49:26 GMT -5
I actually do very much disagree with his failure to vote -- I am one who votes in every piddling little election even if I must write someone in.
But I have no need to rethink the rest of my position unless presented with new information. It is the result of a great deal of thought. H ow is it "misunderstood?" Misunderstood as saying what?
I will also note that in my view the fact that some are offended does not necessarily make something inherently offensive or wrong. Just because some people see something a particular way does not necessarily make it so or make it wrong.
If that were the case, there is pretty much nothing that isn't offensive and wrong.
ETA:
Also, the fact that some mocked someone's kneeling in prayer (which I think is rude and wrong) doesn't, in itself, justify condemning this.
And dancing in the end zone is irrelevant, in my view. It is not a political or religious statement -- it is poor sportsmanship. At any rate, I think it relates to the game and as such it's certainly within the league's right to condemn.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 24, 2017 16:26:12 GMT -5
What a crock of utter bullshit. If your weak-ass metaphor is to rip Colin Kaepernick for taking a knee in protest of police shootings of Black people, you obviously know nothing about the subject. Not that you're going to let your ignorance on the matter slow your roll from farting out an absurd statement proving how little you know. NO president has any goddamn business telling the American people to boycott a private business enterprise. NO president has any goddamn business calling for the firing of private American citizens engaging in a peaceful protest. This is none of Trump's business, but because he cannot resist throwing red, raw chunks of bloody meat to the mouth-breathing idiots that hang on his every word, Trump dares to go where no Chief Executive has gone before. The idiots must be fed and they are eating well. Trump won't do shit for them, but they love him anyway. He puts them darkies in their place. He bashes Kaepernick and Black NFL players harder than he ever bashed the Nazis and Klansmen in Charlottesville. Shut the fuck up, boy and get your Black ass back on that football field. Entertain me! Throw your body around. Make some big hits and kill shots. Destroy your body and your mind. Plenty more where you came from.
The underlying subtext to Trump's words are unmistakable. But you'll never figure it out, Don. Mr. First Amendment. Mr. Free Speech. Mr. Gubberment Iz Baaaaaadddd. Mr. Situational Ethics. Mr. Hypocrite. Fascinating. Nowhere in either of my posts did I rip Colin Kaepernick, and I explicitly stated that the president should not be taking sides on this issue. I have no idea why your tirade was addressed to me, particularly since it's apparent we both disapprove of pay-for-play patriotism and the present course of the NFL. If in the heat of my passion, I reacted harshly instead of reading clearly, I sincerely apologize for misinterpreting your remarks, Don. I'll admit to being a little sensitive on this matter. Perhaps overly so. Yes, but keep in mind he's a person who didn't even vote. He may have a point well worth considering, but if the way you make your point is easily misunderstood, maybe you should rethink it. Many see his taking a knee as being very close to giving the flag the finger. Let's also remember, the NFL has fined players for dancing in the end zone, and many people openly mocked Tim Tebow for kneeling in prayer. So, I'm not all a flush with support for the take a knee movement that's spreading. Many are doing it as a snub towards Trump, who deserves it. But if they insult a soldier who can't stand anymore, to the kids of one who can't watch football with their father, then it's just no big deal to them? They may not mean to insult them, but they are. He still has the right to take the damn knee. Kaepernick's decision not to vote in 2016 ( a position shared with 90 million eligible voters) was a bad look. The pig socks were not helpful either. I didn't mind the Fidel Castro/Malcolm X t-shirt, but I'm sure it bugged Kap's supporters and detractors. But it doesn't invalidate or compromise the reason why he took a knee. Kaepernick didn't give the flag the finger. The flag is a symbol, but what it symbolizes is not uniformly agreed upon. To some the flag represents freedom and democracy and justice for all. To others, it represents slavery, oppression and greed. Who's right? Who's wrong? If you answered "both" you're probably right. Finally, I've heard this nonsense of how Kaepernick taking a knee is an insult to our soldiers. Well, I was a soldier and I'm not insulted at all. In fact, before taking a knee, Kaepernick's protest began with him sitting on the bench during the national anthem. It wasn't until after a conversation he had with Nate Boyer, a former NFL player and a Green Beret, that Kaepernick changed to the more respectful, and more dramatic, bending of the knee.
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Post by robeiae on Sept 24, 2017 17:39:48 GMT -5
Anyway, that issue aside, More or less, I ultimately come down on this one thusly: Kaepernick has the right to express his protest. Team owners has the right to decide whether they want to take him on. And while Trump might have the right, as all of us do, to give an opinion on all that, the POTUS should have bigger fish to fry. It's also notable that he has harsher words for Kaepernick than for white supremacists, Putin, or Russian hackers. I agree with this. But this bit from Goodell is funny (my boldface): Overwhelming force for good? Lol.
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Post by Optimus on Sept 24, 2017 17:44:17 GMT -5
So, I'm not all a flush with support for the take a knee movement that's spreading. Many are doing it as a snub towards Trump, who deserves it. But if they insult a soldier who can't stand anymore, to the kids of one who can't watch football with their father, then it's just no big deal to them? They may not mean to insult them, but they are. The "but it might unintentionally hurt someone's feelings" position is the same type of argument that proponents of so-called "microaggressions" use to police the language and free expression of others. You can't avoid offending people. Tell a "harmless" joke to 100 people, and at least one of them will get upset. That's just life and even though I think people should take due care to not intentionally hurt/offend others (i.e., the "golden rule" aka "don't be a dick"), the fact that someone, somewhere might get their knickers in a twist (earnestly or not) over someone else saying something or otherwise expressing their opinion isn't a justification for silencing that person. Agreed. And I fully support his right to do it just as I support his employer's legal right to take employment action against him for violations of the employer/employee contract. I don't, from a moral standpoint, support the team(s) for cutting him and blacklisting him, but I do support their right to do so from their legal position as a private employer. I wasn't originally fully on board with Kaepernick for his taking a knee, because I thought there might have been better ways for him to protest, but he's a grown ass man and it's his decision and it turned out that his protest was much more effective in starting a conversation than I first thought. Shows what I (don't) know. But, I've always supported his Constitutional and moral right to do so and I think anyone who gives him shit about it because of "patriotic" and "American" reasons are totally missing the point of what it means to be patriotic, American supporters of the Constitution. I'm sure there are soldiers (and families) out there who get offended at it just as I'm sure their are soldiers (and their families) who fully support him. What's more unAmerican? Someone taking a knee to lament that he feels that his great country is not fulfilling its moral, cultural, and Constitutional promises to its citizens, or a minority of cops abusing their power like knuckle-dragging thugs and beating/killing American citizens? I also find it highly ironic that professional athletes can abuse animals, rape women, physically assault people, and shoot people and they eventually get a pass from the public, but a guy takes a knee during the National Anthem and he's somehow committed an unforgivable sin. Give me a break. The fetishization of "Woo hoo, 'Murica!" patriotism and the "America, fuck yeah!" military in the US is sickening.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 24, 2017 17:51:30 GMT -5
This isn't a micro-aggression. He's not saying something innocent that might be interpreted in a strange way. He's intentionally showing disrespect to the flag of the United States which includes some police who have shot and killed innocent black men, but also includes a whole lot of other people. And it's not like he didn't know it going forward. It's more than refusing to stand as well.
Again, his right. And while I find the gesture disrespectful to too many people to personally support, I also didn't lose any sleep over it.
He's not changing minds, or engaging in thoughtful discussion.
And most of the new take a knee people seem to be doing it to spite Trump. Which I also get. And again, it's a petty reason to take a slap at the many who have sacrificed their lives for this country. May not be what you intend, but you have to be very not self aware to not realize that's how it's going to be taken for some.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 18:04:34 GMT -5
This isn't a micro-aggression. He's not saying something innocent that might be interpreted in a strange way. He's intentionally showing disrespect to the flag of the United States which includes some police who have shot and killed innocent black men, but also includes a whole lot of other people. And it's not like he didn't know it going forward. It's more than refusing to stand as well. Meh, not really, IMO. His reasons for the gesture have been well-publicized. I don't believe they're intended to say "all police are assholes!", much less show disrespect to all who value our country or to the values the flag is supposed to stand for. They are his way of saying "yeah, we're not doing a good enough job of living up to that." And kneeling -- that's generally an act of reverence, no? Or submission? So how can it possibly be put on the same level with the blatant disrespect of giving the finger? It is a different act than the expected one of standing, yes. But I submit it is not at all the same. If someone knelt before you, would you really take it the same way as them giving you the finger? For whatever it is worth, my own shift on this took place before Trump. Trumo just pissed me off because his own acts of disrespect for our country and its values are so many degrees beyond Kaepernick's it isn't funny. (Not to mention our military. I'll never forgive him for dissing McCain's heroic war record or his sneer at soldiers with PTSD.) How do you know that this isn't the case for many, most or freaking all of the people now voicing some support for Kaepernick? ETA: It is perfectly possible to support our military, our Constitution, our police, and our country, and yet still think Kaepernick has a point. That would be me, for whatever it is worth. The good police are freaking heroes, and I have no patience for those who would lump all of them together as assholes. Still, there can be no question there are some bad eggs, and too often departments that wrongly shelter such bad eggs. And for everyone's sake-- including the good police who don't deserve to be besmirched -- we should do all we can to fix that.
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Post by Optimus on Sept 24, 2017 18:18:59 GMT -5
This isn't a micro-aggression. He's not saying something innocent that might be interpreted in a strange way. He's intentionally showing disrespect to the flag of the United States which includes some police who have shot and killed innocent black men, but also includes a whole lot of other people. And it's not like he didn't know it going forward. It's more than refusing to stand as well. Again, his right. And while I find the gesture disrespectful to too many people to personally support, I also didn't lose any sleep over it. He's not changing minds, or engaging in thoughtful discussion. And most of the new take a knee people seem to be doing it to spite Trump. Which I also get. And again, it's a petty reason to take a slap at the many who have sacrificed their lives for this country. May not be what you intend, but you have to be very not self aware to not realize that's how it's going to be taken for some. The flag is just cloth and revering it in such a sanctified way is akin to idolatry, in my opinion. Kaepernick "intentionally showing disrespect to the flag of the United States..." is simply your opinion. In many people's eyes, he's not disrespecting anything; he's proudly exercising his 1st Amendment rights, which is one of the things the flag represents. If there are soldiers out there who get offended by him taking a knee, they're the ones with the problem, not Kap, because they're taking something as a personal insult that is not meant by him to be a personal insult. That is the very definition of bullshit "microaggressions." Taking a knee is not any more "macro" of an "aggression" than white women selling burritos. To be personally or culturally offended by either of those things is ludicrous. You've (rightly and justifiably, imo) railed against liberal bias on college campuses (e.g., the UC Berkeley threads) where the liberal majority is silencing conservative minority voices and how you find this unacceptable ("bullying" and "groupthink," I believe you've referred to it as). Why were you not as morally outraged at the hurt feelings of the SJWs on these campuses when the mean ol' conservative kids said something they didn't like? The SJWs get their feelings hurt when conservatives like Ben Shapiro express their views, but the conservatives do it anyway. Those conservatives are "intentionally showing disrespect" to not only the SJWs on campus but to "a whole lot of other people." And, it's not like Ben Shapiro didn't know it going forward. It's more than refusing to stand. When the shoe is on the other foot now, you seem to be more concerned that expertly trained military soldiers, who have seen the blood, devastation, and death of war, will somehow get their delicate feelings deeply hurt simply by seeing a football player on one knee during the anthem, and less concerned by the "groupthink" now coming from the right that has led to the "bullying" of him losing his job and getting publicly insulted by POTUS. You might not be losing any sleep over it, but I find your position to be quite logically inconsistent.
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Post by Amadan on Sept 24, 2017 18:54:56 GMT -5
This isn't a micro-aggression. He's not saying something innocent that might be interpreted in a strange way. He's intentionally showing disrespect to the flag of the United States which includes some police who have shot and killed innocent black men, but also includes a whole lot of other people. And it's not like he didn't know it going forward. It's more than refusing to stand as well. Again, his right. And while I find the gesture disrespectful to too many people to personally support, I also didn't lose any sleep over it. He's not changing minds, or engaging in thoughtful discussion. And most of the new take a knee people seem to be doing it to spite Trump. Which I also get. And again, it's a petty reason to take a slap at the many who have sacrificed their lives for this country. May not be what you intend, but you have to be very not self aware to not realize that's how it's going to be taken for some. I'm calling serious bullshit on this one, Vince. I'm with Cass and Opty - I was not a fan of Kaepernick's stunt, and I still don't really like it, but the flag is not a symbol for every fucking uniformed American and opting to make a point of not giving it respect during the national anthem, while understandably offensive to those who feel a greater sense of patriotism, is not a personal attack on soldiers and policemen. Some soldiers and policemen, and Donald Trump, may feel that it is, but I don't see why we should give a fuck about their feelings when their feelings are demonstrably less hurt by, say, NFL players torturing and killing animals and beating women, or cops shooting people. I say this as someone who did wear the uniform and who still serves the US government - patriotism is a fine thing, but this creepy fetishization of the flag, and of anyone in uniform ("Oh nos! We mustn't disrespect our men in uniform!") is not patriotism. It's nationalism at best, and an almost fascist impulse to give obeisance to the instruments of the state and stifle criticism at worst. The fact that people sacrificed their lives for this country does not mean we are obligated to worship the fucking flag. And that is pretty close to what you are demanding, making it an object of veneration, a symbol of human lives whose souls are somehow invested in a piece of cloth. They didn't die for the cloth. They died for what it is an emblem of, and what it's an emblem of - the country - is a thing worth defending but also a thing with flaws and open to criticism. I personally choose to show respect to the flag. I wince a little at all the "take a knee-ers". I hate seeing even worse disrespect, like burning the flag or people who actively despise the US and aren't shy about saying so. But they have that right. And you know what, I think Trump has disgraced, dishonored, and disrespected the flag, the country, and the Constitution far more than any football player taking a knee during the national anthem. So if his petty, tyrannical outbursts are causing even more people to react this way just to spite him? He brought that on. The flag will survive, the country will survive, with NFL players making symbolic statements of non-patriotism at games. Not so sure right now how well it will survive Trump. As for Kaepernick not changing any minds, well, at least three people in this thread have admitted their stances have softened, though it may be as much because of Trump's overreaction as because of Kaepernick's initial gesture. So yeah, it's a statement and it's causing controversy and people are talking about it. And maybe some people are horribly offended, and that's okay too. But this "You're disrespecting our soldiers!" bullshit? Fuck that.
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Post by nighttimer on Sept 24, 2017 19:15:12 GMT -5
This isn't a micro-aggression. He's not saying something innocent that might be interpreted in a strange way. He's intentionally showing disrespect to the flag of the United States which includes some police who have shot and killed innocent black men, but also includes a whole lot of other people. And it's not like he didn't know it going forward. It's more than refusing to stand as well. Again, his right. And while I find the gesture disrespectful to too many people to personally support, I also didn't lose any sleep over it. He's not changing minds, or engaging in thoughtful discussion. And most of the new take a knee people seem to be doing it to spite Trump. Which I also get. And again, it's a petty reason to take a slap at the many who have sacrificed their lives for this country. May not be what you intend, but you have to be very not self aware to not realize that's how it's going to be taken for some. All of this is your opinion and nearly all of it is wrong. This is not about the damn flag and its not about the damn national anthem and its slavery-slurping third version we don't sing before the damn game starts. It's about cops killing Black people. It's always been about that and if you don't see it, that's because all your attention is on the bent knee, not the dead bodies. Colin Kaepernick has changed minds, but only minds which were open in the first place. Kaepernick has started and has engaged in a thoughtful discussion and the discussions have spread far beyond the football field. There's nothing "petty" about the players, coaches and owners who took a knee or locked arms. They are standing up for their game by not allowing a bigot who defends Nazis and Klansmen, but calls Black men "sons of bitches" to divide them. This protest cost Kaepernick his livelihood, but he focused the nation's attention on something ugly and unjust. Anyone who doesn't care about what it was which fueled Kap's protest is not someone possessing much, if any self-awareness and who cares how they take it? Not Kaepernick, not me, and not the majority of NFL players.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 24, 2017 19:33:23 GMT -5
I'm not gonna do a bunch of posts or try and master the multi quote, so I apologize in advance.
I get what it's about, but right now all anyone is talking about is Trump.
As far as the flag being a cloth, it is more than that. It's a symbol. Standing for it is a sign of respect to what it represents. Many see taking a knee as a sign of disrespect. That's fact. If Kaepernick is okay with that, then fine. But people see things differently.
As far as my mention of Tebow, I mentioned it for the hypocrisy of some.
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Post by Vince524 on Sept 24, 2017 19:35:40 GMT -5
oh, and yes NT, it's opinion. So is your take that I'm wrong. I can respect a difference of opinion. I don't think Kaepernick is wrong, I just don't personally think it's changing much or worse the perceived slight.
The only one I think is dead wrong here is Trump.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 19:52:11 GMT -5
oh, and yes NT, it's opinion. So is your take that I'm wrong. I can respect a difference of opinion. I don't think Kaepernick is wrong, I just don't personally think it's changing much or worse the perceived slight. The only one I think is dead wrong here is Trump. As Amadan noted, isn't it a bit difficult to claim Kaepernick isn't changing minds when three people in this very thread affirm he's shifted theirs? Add to that the fact that now bunches of players have joined his protest, NFL bigwigs have come out supporting him and rebuking Trump, and celebrities like Stevie Wonder are taking a knee. He's gone in a period of months from being a lone guy with a lot of us saying, "pfft, whatever" to a guy with a lot of company and a lot of us "yeah, ya know, I get it." He's unquestionably brought attention to his cause. Agree with the form his protest took or not, I think it's hard to argue that it's been a washout. And as far as "no one is talking about Kaepernick or his cause, just about Trump", again I'd say this very thread disproves that.
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Post by Don on Sept 24, 2017 20:31:08 GMT -5
Thanks, nt. Sometimes my take on things is so skewed from the norm it's easy to misinterpret. Let's add a fourth to the list. I wasn't convinced of the sincerity or utility of Kaepernick's action at first, but I never denied his right to act. After some analysis and reflection, I see it differently now.
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Post by Deleted on Sept 24, 2017 20:52:54 GMT -5
Modly karma points to nighttimer for the gracious apology and to Don for the gracious acceptance. Misunderstandings happen; it's a genuine pleasure to see them resolved so civilly.
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