|
Post by nighttimer on Oct 27, 2017 18:39:50 GMT -5
They could do that, and they might even be slightly right. But the real problem with the NFL this season is two-fold. Too many games to watch and too many unwatchable games. Don't believe it? Let someone who has shelled out big bucks to carry pro football games and isn't at all happy how watered down the product has become.Pro Football used to be played on Sundays. Then it expanded to Monday night. Then it expanded to Sunday afternoon and evening. Then the NFL Sunday Ticket made it possible for any fan to watch their favorite team. Then it expanded to Thursday night. The only days there's no football on is Tuesday and Wednesday, and I'm probably wrong about that. But there can be too much of a good thing and there's too damn much football. I could watch pro on Thursday, high school on Friday, college all day and night Saturday, pro again all day and deep into the night on Sunday and back at it again on Monday. Now I don't know about you, but I get tired of football. I particularly get tired of football when stars like Aaron Rodgers, J.J. Watt, Odell Beckham, David Johnson and many others are done for the season or not playing at all like Andrew Luck. Who wants to wake up at 9:30 a.m on the East Coast to watch the winless Browns throw DeShone Kizer to the dogs the Vikings (led by scrub Case Keenum) are gonna sic on him? Who's rocking the gear of Matt Moore, Jacoby Brissett, Drew Stanton, C.J. Beathard, or Josh McCown? Who gets hyped about three shut-outs last weekend, an overtime game with nothing but field goals scored, or teams trotting out green-as-grass rookies like Mitch Trubinsky in Chicago who threw SEVEN passes the entire game, but still emerged a winner because a defensive back took two turnovers to the house? The NFL is broken and while the protests don't help the situation, the reason the league is sucking so hard is because the games suck, the coaching sucks, the level of play sucks and the owners bitching about their own employees only make it worse. In the case of Jerry Jones who has a hotline to 45 or Babblin' Bob McNair, owner of the Houston Texans chirping about the protests, "We can't have the inmates running the prison" this sort of fuckery only makes a bad situation much, MUCH worse. Comparisons between football players and prison inmates is never going to go over well. You just had President Sexual Harassment calling them "sons of bitches." Now you're calling them convicts? How much poison do you wanna pour in that well, NFL owners? How much you wanna test just how much you belittle and berate these young Black men before they start looking back at history and recalling when baseball owner Marge Schott called two of her stars, "million dollar niggers?" How long before those young Black men starting wondering, "If this what they call us publicly, what are they calling us privately?" Your owners are behaving badly, Roger Goodell. You better get 'em together and tell to shut the fuck up before feelings get so raw, instead of players taking a knee on the sidelines, they walk together to the 50-yard line, throw aside their uniforms and helmets and walk off the field bare-assed, but not before mooning the crowd. Pro Bowl cornerback Richard Sherman tweeted: I can appreciate ppl being candid. Don’t apologize! You meant what you said. Showing true colors allows ppl to see you for who you are. — Richard Sherman (@rsherman_25) October 27, 2017 I wish more ppl would do that. So the world could ostracize those who don’t want to see EQUALITY. Otherwise they will continue to hide — Richard Sherman (@rsherman_25) October 27, 2017 The Texans owner opened his big yap and put both his shoes in it. But he was being honest. McNair only said what a lot of White NFL fans believe to be true. I applaud the courage of his candor. I'm appalled by his stupidity of his brain-dead racism.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Oct 28, 2017 11:45:37 GMT -5
Which was fine. People can still be offended, but they could be offended by anything. This was my 2 cents as to how it could be handled. Sorry, I don't mean to badger but I don't understand your reasoning here. You think it was fine for Kaepernick to sit, but not to kneel? You think it would be fine if everyone sat in protest, but you don't think it's okay to kneel in protest? I could be wrong, but I think the point of kneeling was to show more respect than sitting. My reasoning is that one is active, one is passive. He's not standing for the anthem. His reasons are his own. He can discuss it, which he did. Any person may not agree, but they don't have to. You can't force him to stand. But taking the knee, while it may have been intended as a way to show more respect, is actively doing something, while remaining seated is passive. My rule isn't supposed to be a way to punish Kaepernick, but rather a rule all should follow.
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 28, 2017 11:50:57 GMT -5
I had the exact reverse reaction -- kneeling seemed a way to give respect to what the flag stands for, while still making a point. Sitting seemed like a disrespectful "yeah, screw you, flag, I can't be bothered to even acknowledge you" gesture.
ETA:
I can't come up with a single other example where kneeling has been regarded as a disrespectful gesture.
To the contrary, it is generally (always?) regarded as a gesture to indicate your acknowledgement that a person or entity is greater than you and has power over you. You kneel to God, to a king . You bring a defeated enemy to his knees.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Oct 28, 2017 12:51:59 GMT -5
I'm looking at it as kneeling is taking an action. Sitting is not. A person may stay seated for a variety of reasons. Of course, here everyone knows his reasons. I don't think there should be any restriction on him for him making his reasons clear. Again, I'm not saying this solves the matter, but I think the NFL could make the case to prohibit kneeling during the anthem, but not force him to stand.
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Oct 28, 2017 13:47:26 GMT -5
So Vince is basically saying the players should try to avoid political statements. Kneeling is obviously making a political statement. Sitting may or may not be making a statement--the sitting player would have to explain why he was sitting in order for it to be political. I disagree. I think the player sitting would, in the climate of the NFL now, have to deny there was any intent to make a political statement by sitting.
I agree with Cass that sitting is going to be seen as disrespectful, if not all of the time, then the vast majority of the time. So, both political AND disrespectful.
I'm on Team Don - if you want to take the politics out, get rid of the anthem.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Oct 28, 2017 21:53:30 GMT -5
So Vince is basically saying the players should try to avoid political statements. Kneeling is obviously making a political statement. Sitting may or may not be making a statement--the sitting player would have to explain why he was sitting in order for it to be political. I disagree. I think the player sitting would, in the climate of the NFL now, have to deny there was any intent to make a political statement by sitting. I agree with Cass that sitting is going to be seen as disrespectful, if not all of the time, then the vast majority of the time. So, both political AND disrespectful. I'm on Team Don - if you want to take the politics out, get rid of the anthem. From a business standpoint, that wouldn't make sense, especially now. The anthem isn't, in and of itself, not controversial. At least not for the most part. And most people who watch Football or any sports event want to have that moment. The issue is how you expect your players, while in uniform, act. The NFL will fine a player for too much celebration after a touchdown, telling them no political moments in uniform seems reasonable.
|
|
|
Post by Christine on Oct 28, 2017 22:13:19 GMT -5
So Vince is basically saying the players should try to avoid political statements. Kneeling is obviously making a political statement. Sitting may or may not be making a statement--the sitting player would have to explain why he was sitting in order for it to be political. I disagree. I think the player sitting would, in the climate of the NFL now, have to deny there was any intent to make a political statement by sitting. I agree with Cass that sitting is going to be seen as disrespectful, if not all of the time, then the vast majority of the time. So, both political AND disrespectful. I'm on Team Don - if you want to take the politics out, get rid of the anthem. From a business standpoint, that wouldn't make sense, especially now. The anthem isn't, in and of itself, not controversial. At least not for the most part. And most people who watch Football or any sports event want to have that moment. The issue is how you expect your players, while in uniform, act. The NFL will fine a player for too much celebration after a touchdown, telling them no political moments in uniform seems reasonable. I think the anthem is very controversial, and I'm glad that all the rituals surrounding it and the flag are being called into question. I disagree that most people who watch sports want to hear the national anthem. Most people who watch sports want to watch the game. Most people who watch sports are grabbing their snacks or taking a piss before kickoff while the anthem plays, if it is even televised. Except for the SuperBowl, of course, when the mega-superstar sings it. (Do they stand with hand over heart in their living rooms, btw?) Too much celebration after a touchdown is, I think, called taunting. Or poor sportsmanship, maybe. If you think kneeling at the anthem is akin to taunting or poor sportsmanship, I think you do not understand the point of kneeling, at all.
|
|
|
Post by Don on Oct 29, 2017 7:55:27 GMT -5
I also find the anthem very controversial. It's a war chant steeped in nationalism with a side-order of racism, and a tune that's damned near impossible to sing, and as a country we no longer deserve the tag line "the land of the free and the home of the brave." America the Beautiful is much more fitting for the type of society we claim to aspire to be, although the country's moving quickly toward "Homeland Uber Alles" territory.
Regardless of what song is used, however, opening any event with a performance where all are expected to stand in respect is most certainly political in nature. If you're going to politicize an event, expecting people not to protest that politicization strikes me as nationalism gone wild. Are we really back to the days of "Murica, love it or leave it?"
|
|
|
Post by robeiae on Oct 29, 2017 13:08:04 GMT -5
Playing the anthem before sporting events does serve a purpose: it's a moment of unification before the coming clash. And the history of the practice is closely linked to war and other such events (like 9-11).
I don't think European nations do this for sports, apart from international matches. Of course, the US isn't Europe, not by a long shot. History matters, I think, in understanding the "why" behind the phenomenon.
That said, it ultimately still is what I said it was upthread: a tradition. It's not actually needed and it can be dropped without a second thought, imo. These are far better singing traditions, imo:
|
|
Deleted
Deleted Member
Posts: 0
|
Post by Deleted on Oct 29, 2017 13:14:13 GMT -5
Team "why not play something other than the anthem before sporting events."
The anthem is a lousy piece of music anyway, IMO, whether sung straight or with all the stylistic crap many singers add to it.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Oct 29, 2017 13:23:25 GMT -5
|
|
|
Post by Optimus on Oct 29, 2017 15:33:35 GMT -5
Unfortunately, conservative faux "patriots" would likely riot if anyone ever tried to get rid of the stupid pre-game national anthem.
|
|
|
Post by nighttimer on Oct 29, 2017 16:16:08 GMT -5
I'm looking at it as kneeling is taking an action. Sitting is not. A person may stay seated for a variety of reasons. Of course, here everyone knows his reasons. I don't think there should be any restriction on him for him making his reasons clear. Again, I'm not saying this solves the matter, but I think the NFL could make the case to prohibit kneeling during the anthem, but not force him to stand. You do know Colin Kaepernick modified his anthem protest after Nate Boyer, a former Seattle Seahawk and a Green Beret, talked to him and told Kap taking a knee was more respectful than sitting on the bench as he had been doing? You knew that, right? Boyer wasn't about to join Kaepernick in taking a knee, but he shaped his protest in a way that is more respectful. That is, if a former Green Beret doesn't have a problem with the method Kaepernick agreed upon, I don't know why you or President Bone Spurs should. So Vince is basically saying the players should try to avoid political statements. Kneeling is obviously making a political statement. Sitting may or may not be making a statement--the sitting player would have to explain why he was sitting in order for it to be political. I disagree. I think the player sitting would, in the climate of the NFL now, have to deny there was any intent to make a political statement by sitting. I agree with Cass that sitting is going to be seen as disrespectful, if not all of the time, then the vast majority of the time. So, both political AND disrespectful. I'm on Team Don - if you want to take the politics out, get rid of the anthem. From a business standpoint, that wouldn't make sense, especially now. The only reason NFL players stand for the anthem at all is based upon business. They could resolve the problem by going back to the previous position where players didn't even come out for the national anthem, but assholes like Trump and Jerry "ranking owner" Jones would lose their shit. Really? They want to sing a poorly-written, hard to sing, pro-slavery racist ass song? Tell me something, Vince? When you turn on a NFL game do you rise from your recliner, put your hand over your heart and sing this? Oh say can you see, By the dawn's early light, What so proudly we hailed, At the twilight's last gleaming?
Whose broad stripes and bright stars, Through the perilous fight, O'er the ramparts we watched, Were so gallantly streaming.
And thy rocket's red glare, Thy bombs bursting in air, Gave proof through thee night, That our flag was still there.
Oh say does that star spangled banner yet wave, O'er the land of the free, and the home of the brave.What about this part? And where is that band who so vauntingly swore, That the havoc of war and the battle’s confusion A home and a Country should leave us no more? Their blood has wash’d out their foul footstep’s pollution. No refuge could save the hireling and slave From the terror of flight or the gloom of the grave, And the star-spangled banner in triumph doth wave O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave. The Star-Spangled Banner is a shit song and a shit national anthem. It's controversial when you realize who Francis Scott Key was and what message he tried to get across in his shitty song. The only reason nobody sings the third stanza is who wants to sing about slaves right before a predominantly Black group of players go out to knock the hell out of each other for three hours? While on the field, I expect the players to do their jobs on the field. On the sidelines, it's exploitative to use them as props for bullshit acts of faux patriotism designed by the NFL and the military.
|
|
|
Post by Vince524 on Oct 30, 2017 12:17:29 GMT -5
While on the field, I expect the players to do their jobs on the field. On the sidelines, it's exploitative to use them as props for bullshit acts of faux patriotism designed by the NFL and the military. He's on the sidelines, but still in uniform and on the clock. So the NFL can impose standards for how he behaves. And yes, I understand that he did the knee thing because it was supposed to be better than not standing. Regardless, it's seen as making a statement, while sitting could be seen as just not wanting to participate.
I'm not saying the NFL should do that, but I think it would be reasonable to tell players if your within public view while in uniform, don't make any political statements. Stay in the locker room or just don't stand during the anthem. Your not telling them to do something, just not to. If he stayed in his seat, at this point, everyone would know why anyway. The NFL is in a no win scenario. If they force him to stand if he wants to play, they're infringing on his 1st amendment rights and seen as bullies like Trump. If they don't, a lot of people who are looking to be outraged over something will be outraged over this. We've had calls calling for us to not offer any NFL packages here because of this. (Not a lot, but still. And no, we're still offering.) I think, personally, most people are being stupid. If you disagree with him, fine. But people are dumb.
|
|
|
Post by poetinahat on Oct 30, 2017 18:53:56 GMT -5
I wonder what people would think if they all had to stand and sing the national anthem before they started work each day?
|
|