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Post by Christine on Oct 15, 2017 18:23:11 GMT -5
Cassandra probably only said that out of frustration because this whole argument is idiotic That, and I'm deeply frustrated with the preachiness and sanctimony that, IMO, do as much as anything to drive people away from the left and have helped our country arrive at the horrifying pass we are currently in. FFS, I am often finding the people I agree with substantively more off-putting than many I disagree with. I've had to mute two-thirds of the Resisters and Nasty Women on my twitter feed -- with whom I generally agree on many issues and certainly on Trump -- simply because I find them insufferable. I don't want Ms. S fired. I'm sure she's a good librarian. But damn, I'm tired of the sanctimony and the mindless cheering of anything -- anything -- that purports to oppose Trump. You and many others think this librarian was "sanctimonious." You call my and nighttimer's approval of what she did "mindless cheering" because it purports to oppose Trump. This is a librarian. This is our education system. She made points regarding our education system. You yourself were opposed to DeVos, IIRC. The librarian is on the "front line," here. She had an opportunity. She took it. You can say she missed the mark, or went overboard, or went sideways. Those criticisms may be valid. IMO, robovowels had the most "centrist" take on it, though I disagree with some of his take. You have basically ended up labeling her with a bunch of negative adjectives and saying "Fuck her" because... because.... I don't even know why. You're being as extreme as those you purport to oppose, imo. And same goes for all the other anti-SJWs on the board. I can consider the criticisms given, just not with the level of vitriol that always seems to come with those criticisms. It does not serve.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 18:25:20 GMT -5
An interesting interpretation of what happened in this thread. Thanks for playing. It's been fun.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 15, 2017 19:12:15 GMT -5
You and many others think this librarian was "sanctimonious." You call my and nighttimer's approval of what she did "mindless cheering" because it purports to oppose Trump. This is a librarian. This is our education system. She made points regarding our education system. You yourself were opposed to DeVos, IIRC. The librarian is on the "front line," here. She had an opportunity. She took it. You can say she missed the mark, or went overboard, or went sideways. Those criticisms may be valid. IMO, robovowels had the most "centrist" take on it, though I disagree with some of his take. You have basically ended up labeling her with a bunch of negative adjectives and saying "Fuck her" because... because.... I don't even know why. You're being as extreme as those you purport to oppose, imo. And same goes for all the other anti-SJWs on the board. I can consider the criticisms given, just not with the level of vitriol that always seems to come with those criticisms. It does not serve. Okay, I try to consider criticisms from both sides too. Obviously, you think the "anti-SJW" faction is more extreme and mean - you tend to identify more with NT and you see bashing Ms. Soreiro as unnecessary. Look, I admit, I think Cass saying "Fuck Ms. Soreiro" was not one of her finer moments, and as I said, she did it because this whole thread has become, like so many others, a referendum on who's secretly a racist Trump supporter, which according to NT and now, seemingly, you, is anyone who punches left instead of keeping all the rage and disdain focused on the true enemy, Trump. I get your point that we shouldn't be shooting at "our own side" when Trump and the Alt-Right are the bigger enemies. I just don't agree with it. I've already said that truth is the highest virtue. I cannot deemphasize intellectual honesty because the people being intellectually dishonest might (usually) have their hearts in the right place. I might go easier on them than I will on people who are both intellectually dishonest and malignant, but I'm still going to be disgusted. Your argument seems to be that I should be more disgusted and showing more outrage against, say, Neo-Nazis than I do against SJWs. To a degree that is true, but the thing is that pretty much everyone except Neo-Nazis hates Neo-Nazis so when Neo-Nazis march, there isn't much to add to the dialog besides "Yeah, those guys are assholes. Fuck those guys." I don't have any Neo-Nazis (that I know of) in my social circle, either in real life or online. SJWs, on the other hand, are abundant, and often they're spouting egregious bullshit that makes my skin crawl, and you want me to lighten up on them because they are anti-Nazi just like me. Here's the problem: I actually think SJWs are actively harmful too. They want to rewrite laws and history and reify all social relationships. They want to block scientific research they don't like, prohibit entertainment they disapprove of, and shun people they find "problematic." So do Nazis, but SJWs are actually succeeding in doing those things. One of the Alt-Right's mottos is "No enemies on the right," which means basically, don't criticize anyone who's an enemy of their enemies. Which is why even members of the Alt-Right who aren't white supremacists or anti-Semites themselves are loathe to criticize Nazis (unless they're the brand of right-winger peddling the "Nazis were leftists" nonsense). You're arguing the same strategy for the left, and besides not really being a leftist, I'm just not having it that I should not criticize any enemy of my enemy.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 19:36:17 GMT -5
You and many others think this librarian was "sanctimonious." You call my and nighttimer's approval of what she did "mindless cheering" because it purports to oppose Trump. This is a librarian. This is our education system. She made points regarding our education system. You yourself were opposed to DeVos, IIRC. The librarian is on the "front line," here. She had an opportunity. She took it. You can say she missed the mark, or went overboard, or went sideways. Those criticisms may be valid. IMO, robovowels had the most "centrist" take on it, though I disagree with some of his take. You have basically ended up labeling her with a bunch of negative adjectives and saying "Fuck her" because... because.... I don't even know why. You're being as extreme as those you purport to oppose, imo. And same goes for all the other anti-SJWs on the board. I can consider the criticisms given, just not with the level of vitriol that always seems to come with those criticisms. It does not serve. Okay, I try to consider criticisms from both sides too. Obviously, you think the "anti-SJW" faction is more extreme and mean - you tend to identify more with NT and you see bashing Ms. Soreiro as unnecessary. Look, I admit, I think Cass saying "Fuck Ms. Soreiro" was not one of her finer moments, and as I said, she did it because this whole thread has become, like so many others, a referendum on who's secretly a racist Trump supporter, which according to NT and now, seemingly, you, is anyone who punches left instead of keeping all the rage and disdain focused on the true enemy, Trump. I get your point that we shouldn't be shooting at "our own side" when Trump and the Alt-Right are the bigger enemies. I just don't agree with it. I've already said that truth is the highest virtue. I cannot deemphasize intellectual honesty because the people being intellectually dishonest might (usually) have their hearts in the right place. I might go easier on them than I will on people who are both intellectually dishonest and malignant, but I'm still going to be disgusted. Your argument seems to be that I should be more disgusted and showing more outrage against, say, Neo-Nazis than I do against SJWs. To a degree that is true, but the thing is that pretty much everyone except Neo-Nazis hates Neo-Nazis so when Neo-Nazis march, there isn't much to add to the dialog besides "Yeah, those guys are assholes. Fuck those guys." I don't have any Neo-Nazis (that I know of) in my social circle, either in real life or online. SJWs, on the other hand, are abundant, and often they're spouting egregious bullshit that makes my skin crawl, and you want me to lighten up on them because they are anti-Nazi just like me. Here's the problem: I actually think SJWs are actively harmful too. They want to rewrite laws and history and reify all social relationships. They want to block scientific research they don't like, prohibit entertainment they disapprove of, and shun people they find "problematic." So do Nazis, but SJWs are actually succeeding in doing those things. One of the Alt-Right's mottos is "No enemies on the right," which means basically, don't criticize anyone who's an enemy of their enemies. Which is why even members of the Alt-Right who aren't white supremacists or anti-Semites themselves are loathe to criticize Nazis (unless they're the brand of right-winger peddling the "Nazis were leftists" nonsense). You're arguing the same strategy for the left, and besides not really being a leftist, I'm just not having it that I should not criticize any enemy of my enemy. I shall embroider this post on a throw pillow that I might keep it with me always during these dark hours of our Republic.
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Post by Christine on Oct 15, 2017 19:51:36 GMT -5
Okay, I try to consider criticisms from both sides too. Obviously, you think the "anti-SJW" faction is more extreme and mean - you tend to identify more with NT and you see bashing Ms. Soreiro as unnecessary. Well, sort of. I acknowledge that some of the SJW rhetoric is beyond the pale. But I think the anti-SJW rhetoric is more hurt-feelings than anything else. What are people so "upset" about? In my experience, which is only on a couple of message boards, so there's that. I don't "identify" more with NT, though I do think I see where he's coming from sometimes when others here are at the ready with guns drawn. Then again, so is he. He can speak for himself. But most of the shit everyone is sick of is based on personal relationships. That's on all y'all. Couple of things: it didn't bother me that Cass said that. She's entitled to say it. I'm the last person to be judging manifestations of frustration. I'm a big fan of the F-word, as well. But I disagree that it's the thread's fault. I think it's clear that she views Soreiro as smug, insufferable, pretentious, hypocritical, preachy, condescending, and self-righteous. I think these are entirely unfair characterizations of her, but at the same time, I think it would be entirely unfair to call Cass a racist or a Trump supporter for that view, so you can discard that notion, please and thank you. No, I don't want you or anyone else to not point out the problems that sometimes exist. I just want them to not become your arch-enemy. I said it all in my earlier post. It's not that I think some actions shouldn't be criticized; it's that there's an anti-SJW faction--and honestly, it's intruded into perfectly normal, liberal views, not extreme ones--where the sole goal is to identify, target, and pile upon supposedly fellow liberals. If I were an Alt-righter, I couldn't imagine a more glorious scenario. No, I am not arguing that strategy. I'm arguing that I don't think "SJWs," in general, are harmful. Annoying, yes. Harmful, no. I think the extremists could be harmful. But I don't think these leftist extremists you speak of are any more prolific than Neo-Nazis. It's absolutely correct to condemn them, but if this board was my only source of news, some posters would have me imagining they were about to take over the country. And to circle it back to the OP, this librarian is not a leftist extremist, nor harmful, imo.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 15, 2017 20:25:04 GMT -5
That, and I'm deeply frustrated with the preachiness and sanctimony that, IMO, do as much as anything to drive people away from the left and have helped our country arrive at the horrifying pass we are currently in. FFS, I am often finding the people I agree with substantively more off-putting than many I disagree with. I've had to mute two-thirds of the Resisters and Nasty Women on my twitter feed -- with whom I generally agree on many issues and certainly on Trump -- simply because I find them insufferable. I don't want Ms. S fired. I'm sure she's a good librarian. But damn, I'm tired of the sanctimony and the mindless cheering of anything -- anything -- that purports to oppose Trump. You and many others think this librarian was "sanctimonious." You call my and nighttimer's approval of what she did "mindless cheering" because it purports to oppose Trump. This is a librarian. This is our education system. She made points regarding our education system. You yourself were opposed to DeVos, IIRC. The librarian is on the "front line," here. She had an opportunity. She took it. You can say she missed the mark, or went overboard, or went sideways. Those criticisms may be valid. IMO, robovowels had the most "centrist" take on it, though I disagree with some of his take. You have basically ended up labeling her with a bunch of negative adjectives and saying "Fuck her" because... because.... I don't even know why. You're being as extreme as those you purport to oppose, imo. And same goes for all the other anti-SJWs on the board. I can consider the criticisms given, just not with the level of vitriol that always seems to come with those criticisms. It does not serve. Pretty much this. I make no apology for being all-in against All Things Trump and I'm hardly "mindless." If the Left is not being very nice toward Trump that's because it's not very nice what he does to education and schools and treaties and allies and the environment and healthcare and voting rights and gay rights and a woman's right to choose. This is a presidency that operates on extremism. This is a presidency that picks fights with Black NFL players and pats White supremacists on the head. This is a presidency that shits over anything Barack Obama did and is determined to undo the past eight years one rotten executive order at a time. This is a presidency that says and does things which makes mainstream conservatives recoil in disgust. Why be nice to those who will only view niceness as weakness? This is the time for the next Rosa Parks, Martin Luther Kings, Fannie Lou Hamers, Stokely Carmichaels and other activists to rise up, demonstrate, raise hell, kick ass and tear down and rip apart Trumpism as the nationalistic, racist, xenophobic, divisive, and fascist evil that it is. It takes bodies willing to stand up and speak truth to power and put themselves at risk. You don't fight evil simply by signing a petition or scratching a check. You have to go hard or stay home. So when a citizen takes a stand against this vulgar, bigoted, corrupt moronic man and his minions, I will applaud it, cheer it and support it. What Liz Soeiro did wasn't illegal, wasn't violent, and hurt no one. No matter what anyone wants to say about her act of resistance, they cannot say that. People have the right to protest as they see fit and not how I, Christine, Cassandra, robeiae or anybody else says they should. We're all free to have an opinion on how they protest, but we don't get to call the shots and tell them how they should. Fighting Trumpism is a long game and it is going to take changing the rules of the game. This includes not always being polite and genteel and nice in the process of resisting. If that offends, then it offends. Nothing to be done about it except wave "bye-bye" as those who choose to opt out step out the door. I see no reason to try to convince those who disagree with my form of resistance that what is right for me should be right for them. I have no desire to align myself with anyone who wants to dictate the rules of how to resist and on what issues. They can find their own way and their own methods they're happy with. This can be and should be done respectfully. Nobody said we all have to sing the same hymn from the same choir book and be in perfect harmony. There's something to be said for disparate groups with disparate agendas and interests coming together against a mutual foe and then going their separate ways. It's an arrangement, not a marriage. Just stay out of my way and I'll stay out of yours. We'll see whose method gets the job done.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 15, 2017 20:29:56 GMT -5
Sure. And we all have the right to discuss it on this message board, since that's pretty much the point of having it.
If you are looking for a venue that is a mere uncritical cheer squad for the resistance and the every action of all who purport to belong to it, look elsewhere.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 15, 2017 20:39:01 GMT -5
Sure. And we all have the right to discuss it on this message board, since that's pretty much the point of having it. If you are looking for a venue that is a mere uncritical cheer squad for the resistance and the every action of all who purport to belong to it, look elsewhere. Never thought that. Never said that. All I was looking for was a place where the viewpoints of the few were tolerated when it differed from the viewpoint of the many. That, and a venue where the standards were consistent. Did I find it or should I be looking elsewhere?
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Post by Christine on Oct 15, 2017 20:54:12 GMT -5
Sure. And we all have the right to discuss it on this message board, since that's pretty much the point of having it. If you are looking for a venue that is a mere uncritical cheer squad for the resistance and the every action of all who purport to belong to it, look elsewhere. Never thought that. Never said that. Nor did I. For fuck's sake.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 15, 2017 21:06:21 GMT -5
Never thought that. Never said that. Nor did I. For fuck's sake. Okay, but contrary to what NT keeps asserting, no one here said we need to be nice in protesting/resisting/complaining about Trump. If what you got out of this thread is that people who criticize Soreiro are saying "Boo hoo, she was meeeean to Melania Trump!" then you have not been reading very closely.
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Post by Christine on Oct 15, 2017 21:26:25 GMT -5
Nor did I. For fuck's sake. Okay, but contrary to what NT keeps asserting, no one here said we need to be nice in protesting/resisting/complaining about Trump. If what you got out of this thread is that people who criticize Soreiro are saying "Boo hoo, she was meeeean to Melania Trump!" then you have not been reading very closely. This.... this is so far removed from anything I've said, or that NT has said, that I'm honestly confused as to what you mean. Fwiw, I don't think anyone here has been defending Melania or worrying about her feelings.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 15, 2017 22:01:05 GMT -5
Okay, but contrary to what NT keeps asserting, no one here said we need to be nice in protesting/resisting/complaining about Trump. If what you got out of this thread is that people who criticize Soreiro are saying "Boo hoo, she was meeeean to Melania Trump!" then you have not been reading very closely. This.... this is so far removed from anything I've said, or that NT has said, that I'm honestly confused as to what you mean. Fwiw, I don't think anyone here has been defending Melania or worrying about her feelings. I do. I do think a lot of anyones here have been defending Melania and worrying about her feelings. This entire thread is based upon that premise. What I got out of this thread is if you aren't nice in protesting/resisting/complaining about Trump you're going to be called rude at best and "fuck Ms. Soeiro" at worst. YMMV.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 8:56:02 GMT -5
What I got out of this thread is that you and Christine were participating from an alternate dimension that dropped out half the posts and twisted the rest.
Perhaps, however, it also twisted yours, and you did not actually type all of the baseless accusations about the rest of us being do-nothings, the misogynistic comments, etc.
I'll assume that's the case and move on.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 16, 2017 9:03:41 GMT -5
Okay, but contrary to what NT keeps asserting, no one here said we need to be nice in protesting/resisting/complaining about Trump. If what you got out of this thread is that people who criticize Soreiro are saying "Boo hoo, she was meeeean to Melania Trump!" then you have not been reading very closely. This.... this is so far removed from anything I've said, or that NT has said, that I'm honestly confused as to what you mean. Fwiw, I don't think anyone here has been defending Melania or worrying about her feelings. So, apparently I am saying that we weren't saying something that you say you and NT weren't saying we're saying, but NT says we were saying.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 9:20:40 GMT -5
So, apparently I am saying that we weren't saying something that you say you and NT weren't saying we're saying, but NT says we were saying. That pretty much sums up the thread.
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