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Post by Vince524 on Oct 16, 2017 9:57:11 GMT -5
This.... this is so far removed from anything I've said, or that NT has said, that I'm honestly confused as to what you mean. Fwiw, I don't think anyone here has been defending Melania or worrying about her feelings. So, apparently I am saying that we weren't saying something that you say you and NT weren't saying we're saying, but NT says we were saying. So, apparently I am saying that we weren't saying something that you say you and NT weren't saying we're saying, but NT says we were saying. That pretty much sums up the thread. You don’t say?
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Post by Vince524 on Oct 16, 2017 11:56:07 GMT -5
Okay, but contrary to what NT keeps asserting, no one here said we need to be nice in protesting/resisting/complaining about Trump. If what you got out of this thread is that people who criticize Soreiro are saying "Boo hoo, she was meeeean to Melania Trump!" then you have not been reading very closely. This.... this is so far removed from anything I've said, or that NT has said, that I'm honestly confused as to what you mean. Fwiw, I don't think anyone here has been defending Melania or worrying about her feelings. I think there's been some defense of Melania, but that hasn't been the main thrust of the argument here.
Mrs. Trump donated books to the library. The librarian in question put forward a letter that basically telling her the gift was not wanted and was bad because the Cat in the Hat and Dr. Seuss is racist. Pictures of her in the cat in the hat would indicate that in the past, she's had no issue with the books. In essence, her opinion of President Trump and by relation, his wife, is so low that she feels justified in saying this to her when I don't believe if this had happened under President Obama and Michelle had sent the same books as a gift she would have done the same thing. Her political views are her business, and heck, I'd probably agree with most of them. At least in relation to Trump, but most of us see this as taking a swipe at Mrs. Trump for what should have been a nice gesture.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 16, 2017 12:44:04 GMT -5
What I got out of this thread is that you and Christine were participating from an alternate dimension that dropped out half the posts and twisted the rest. Perhaps, however, it also twisted yours, and you did not actually type all of the baseless accusations about the rest of us being do-nothings, the misogynistic comments, etc. I'll assume that's the case and move on. Your assumption is erroneous. The suggestion Christine and I "were participating from an alternate dimension that drop out half the post and twisted the rest" is specious and counterfactual. I'm genuinely sorry you feel that way.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 16, 2017 12:52:47 GMT -5
This.... this is so far removed from anything I've said, or that NT has said, that I'm honestly confused as to what you mean. Fwiw, I don't think anyone here has been defending Melania or worrying about her feelings. I think there's been some defense of Melania, but that hasn't been the main thrust of the argument here.
Mrs. Trump donated books to the library. The librarian in question put forward a letter that basically telling her the gift was not wanted and was bad because the Cat in the Hat and Dr. Seuss is racist. Pictures of her in the cat in the hat would indicate that in the past, she's had no issue with the books. In essence, her opinion of President Trump and by relation, his wife, is so low that she feels justified in saying this to her when I don't believe if this had happened under President Obama and Michelle had sent the same books as a gift she would have done the same thing. Her political views are her business, and heck, I'd probably agree with most of them. At least in relation to Trump, but most of us see this as taking a swipe at Mrs. Trump for what should have been a nice gesture. Thanks for the recap, Vince. It doesn't change anything though. Nobody's changed their mind here. It's all been about retrenchment and recovering the ground already covered.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 13:37:07 GMT -5
I do want to clarify one thing, now that I've cooled down a bit (because, yes, I was seriously annoyed). My "fuck Ms. Soiero" was taken in a way I did not intend it. (And yes, as Amadan notes, I expressed it that way because I was feeling pissed off and frustrated.) To be clear -- I did NOT mean "fuck her as a human being, she's evil and deserves to burn in hell for all eternity." I meant, "fuck her argument on Dr. Seuss's books -- I strongly disagree with it and frankly, I don't think she even really agrees with it (see, e.g., the Cat in the Hat costume). But it wasn't well-expressed, and as Amadan notes, wasn't one of my finer moments in putting forth an argument. Still, it was never intended in the way some here apparently took it. Besides the fact that yes, as Amadan notes, I was quite frustrated with the thread in general and in particular the "secret Trump voter" turn, I also am very genuinely and sincerely a yuuuuuge Dr. Seuss fan. I do quite genuinely credit his books for the germs of my own love of poetry and reading in general (the latter of which I credit for much of any success I've achieved since), and I think it's true for other children in my life. Not that it necessarily matters to anyone but me, but I have to note that my view of Seuss as deeply influential on me was not cobbled together for this thread -- I sincerely hold that view. I went on about it at some length on another website when I was made poet laureate. I'm attaching it, if anyone cares. I do not believe doing so violates our rules because the post is purely my words, used only for the point that I have long held these views and have expressed them elsewhere in other contexts, and as an explanation of why the Dr. Seuss diss hit me close to home -- thus, I think they are more in the spirit of posting a page from my blog than they are in dragging in an argument from another forum. If Rob disagrees, I'll remove the link. Anyway, I genuinely think it would be a crying, screaming shame and a great loss if those delightful books that have turned generations of children on to reading were tossed out of libraries as "cliche." Besides all of the other things I didn't care for about Ms. S's letter (and there were many), her Dr. Seuss diss struck a personal chord.
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Post by Amadan on Oct 16, 2017 13:39:42 GMT -5
Thanks for the recap, Vince. It doesn't change anything though. Nobody's changed their mind here. It's all been about retrenchment and recovering the ground already covered. Not really. Very rarely does anyone in a discussion/argument/debate, online or in real life, smack their forehead and declare "You're right! I have changed my position!" People usually engage knowing that no one is going to undergo a sudden reversal like that. Changes in opinion are incremental. Often people are introduced to facts or points of view they hadn't actually considered before. And while they might deny their minds were changed about anything, the accumulation of additional information may have a salutary long term effect. Or not. Even when no one changes their mind, the practice of testing and honing one's arguments can be useful, whether it's defending a position against a reasonable and intelligent debater or just not letting an idiot provoke you.
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Post by Vince524 on Oct 16, 2017 16:05:37 GMT -5
I do want to clarify one thing, now that I've cooled down a bit (because, yes, I was seriously annoyed). My "fuck Ms. Soiero" was taken in a way I did not intend it. (And yes, as Amadan notes, I expressed it that way because I was feeling pissed off and frustrated.) To be clear -- I did NOT mean "fuck her as a human being, she's evil and deserves to burn in hell for all eternity." I meant, "fuck her argument on Dr. Seuss's books -- I strongly disagree with it and frankly, I don't think she even really agrees with it (see, e.g., the Cat in the Hat costume). But it wasn't well-expressed, and as Amadan notes, wasn't one of my finer moments in putting forth an argument. Still, it was never intended in the way some here apparently took it. Besides the fact that yes, as Amadan notes, I was quite frustrated with the thread in general and in particular the "secret Trump voter" turn, I also am very genuinely and sincerely a yuuuuuge Dr. Seuss fan. I do quite genuinely credit his books for the germs of my own love of poetry and reading in general (the latter of which I credit for much of any success I've achieved since), and I think it's true for other children in my life. Not that it necessarily matters to anyone but me, but I have to note that my view of Seuss as deeply influential on me was not cobbled together for this thread -- I sincerely hold that view. I went on about it at some length on another website when I was made poet laureate. I'm attaching it, if anyone cares. I do not believe doing so violates our rules because the post is purely my words, used only for the point that I have long held these views and have expressed them elsewhere in other contexts, and as an explanation of why the Dr. Seuss diss hit me close to home -- thus, I think they are more in the spirit of posting a page from my blog than they are in dragging in an argument from another forum. If Rob disagrees, I'll remove the link. Anyway, I genuinely think it would be a crying, screaming shame and a great loss if those delightful books that have turned generations of children on to reading were tossed out of libraries as "cliche." Besides all of the other things I didn't care for about Ms. S's letter (and there were many), her Dr. Seuss diss struck a personal chord. You’re welcome.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 16:10:31 GMT -5
You're weird, Vince. You know that.
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Post by Christine on Oct 16, 2017 18:18:06 GMT -5
This.... this is so far removed from anything I've said, or that NT has said, that I'm honestly confused as to what you mean. Fwiw, I don't think anyone here has been defending Melania or worrying about her feelings. I do. I do think a lot of anyones here have been defending Melania and worrying about her feelings. This entire thread is based upon that premise. What I got out of this thread is if you aren't nice in protesting/resisting/complaining about Trump you're going to be called rude at best and "fuck Ms. Soeiro" at worst. YMMV. It does, from the standpoint that I don't think anyone has been saying "poor Melania." I didn't see that as your argument, but I may have a missed a post (or page) or two. I do try to skip over the back-and-forth when it gets off the rails. I agree somewhat with the second paragraph -- but instead of "nice" I'd say "the way *I* think protests should go" -- but in actuality, I think the general negative sentiment here has been that what Ms. Soeiro did wasn't even a protest all, just hypocritical virtue-signaling, and SJWs suck, and whatnot. Also, Dr. Seuss shall not ever be disparaged. What I got out of this thread is that you and Christine were participating from an alternate dimension that dropped out half the posts and twisted the rest. Perhaps, however, it also twisted yours, and you did not actually type all of the baseless accusations about the rest of us being do-nothings, the misogynistic comments, etc. I'll assume that's the case and move on. What I get from this post is that you can't remember anything outside of being insulted. I'm sorry you felt insulted. Been there myself. This.... this is so far removed from anything I've said, or that NT has said, that I'm honestly confused as to what you mean. Fwiw, I don't think anyone here has been defending Melania or worrying about her feelings. So, apparently I am saying that we weren't saying something that you say you and NT weren't saying we're saying, but NT says we were saying. Again, I should not have spoken for NT. I, myself, have not seen any arguments here for "poor Melania." Apologies. So, apparently I am saying that we weren't saying something that you say you and NT weren't saying we're saying, but NT says we were saying. That pretty much sums up the thread. Except it doesn't. There has been a lot of substantive discussion. I appreciate where people have engaged in a dialogue, so thanks.
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Post by mikey on Oct 16, 2017 18:26:58 GMT -5
You're weird, Vince. You know that. I think that probably deserves it's own thread, with a poll. wada I know ((shrug))
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 18:28:51 GMT -5
You're weird, Vince. You know that. I think that probably deserves it's own thread, with a poll. wada I know ((shrug)) Oh come on, we'd definitely all vote that Vince is weird. We love him for it, but thems the facts.
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Post by Deleted on Oct 16, 2017 18:31:31 GMT -5
Also, Dr. Seuss shall not ever be disparaged. Funny, I had the impression it was "Ms. Soiero shall not ever be disparaged -- or indeed, criticized in any way -- because protests and the Resistance and Trump ." We should have a poll.
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Post by Vince524 on Oct 16, 2017 20:35:55 GMT -5
You may think I'm weird, but my imaginary friend disagrees.
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Post by nighttimer on Oct 16, 2017 22:42:30 GMT -5
Also, Dr. Seuss shall not ever be disparaged. Funny, I had the impression it was "Ms. Soiero shall not ever be disparaged -- or indeed, criticized in any way -- because protests and the Resistance and Trump ." Your impression is as erroneous as was your assumption. No one has stated in this debate Ms. Soeiro was above criticism or being disparaged. The impression I have is it is perfectly legit to demonize Liz Soeiro as an unscrupulous shill for the Far Left and to do so with the same rudeness and incivility the librarian was accused of directing towards the First Lady. I am no more objective on this subject anyone else is, so it is conceivable my own ideological blind spots are whispering in my ear. At any rate, I have nothing further to add to this debate and will take my leave of it. Please. No applause. There are far more interesting issues of actual importance no one is discussing here. Continuing to feed this beast despite no new developments in the story in over a week would seem to be an unproductive expenditure of time and energy. This thread has descended into a tautological argument which is endlessly looping back upon itself swallowing its own tail. Despite what others might believe, I see no one moving off of their original stance and that includes myself. The Colline Gate now has its longest and most commented on and read thread in General Current Events ( nearly 300 replies almost 2500 views and you're welcome) and it's kind of amazing how it didn't change my mind even slightly about the correctness of my take on the Trump/Soeiro kerfuffle. I acknowledge I didn't change yours either. 'Twas never my intent. To Amadan and Opty's oft-asked question/demand, " Why are you here? You're so uncivil and rude. You're a troll" I offer this observation for your enlightenment and amusement: Why am I here? Because any board worth a damn needs a few contrarians. Contrarians are annoying, but conformists are boring-ass fucks. Debate does not thrive when there's nothing but harmony. Debate requires being contentious, confrontational, and complex. The only way anyone learns anything is not from taking in the perspective of those whom they agree with but with those they cannot stand. That's a thing I'm good at because you will never meet a person who cares less if he's liked and gives less than a fuck if anyone agrees with him. When all is said and done, what matters most is not who is right or wrong, but whose argument made us think? Thinking is hard. Believing is easy, which is most Westerners prefer to believe. If this board is as far removed from the unthinking masses as Cassandra and Amadan assert is is, we should give serious pause when we are as reactive, petty, nonsensical, emotional, irrational and argumentative as the two neighbors squabbling about the other's dog taking a dump in their yards. The question should not be "Do I agree?" but "Am I thinking deeply or reacting shallowly?" If we're honest, none of us can claim to always respond while thinking deep thoughts. Much more satisfying to bash and beat up the keyboard in righteous rage and fire back with red-hot bullets of emotional rhetoric instead of rational reason. An argument over the years I've seen legitimately levied against my own emotional rhetoric. Done far more skillfully by a rare few than the vast many. Most choose to believe than to think. We experience far greater difficulty disputing a well-thought out and reasoned deconstruction of our words than we do with a flaming-hot rhetorical drive-by. None of us are Internet Virgins and all of us have been embroiled in much hotter debates than this one. We talk, but do we hear? We know what we think but do we care what you think? Are we thinking or are we simply responding? If being the uppity Black man is my purpose here until I've served my purpose, it's something I'm good at. I'm not this board's diversity hire or Magic Negro, but I'm not shy about reminding posters here you are White with all the privileges that come with it including the option to forget you are White. That's a luxury denied to me because I live in an America that never stops reminding me I'm Black and forgetting is dangerous. Perhaps this is why I identify with Liz Soeiro so completely. I know what its like to be the odd one out. I prefer to be in the small minority than the large majority. You win fewer battles but when you do you enjoy it more. ::)If you believe nothing else about me, please believe this: I've been pissing off smarter, wealthier and more powerful people than you long before I got here. I'm good at that too and real sorry all for the mean, accurate things I said. Because here's the thing. It doesn't matter what I think about Melania Trump or Dr. Seuss. It doesn't matter what Cassandra thinks about Liz Soeiro or Dr. Seuss. I will not concede Cassandra is right and I am wrong anymore than she would. Hell, if you believe you're right, why give in and go along to get along? Earlier I asked Cassandra if she had an opportunity to speak with Melania or Liz, which one of the two protagonists would she choose? She chose Melania. I chose Liz. Because that's who we identify most with. Duh. It now occurs to me what actually might be best for everyone would be if Melania and Liz spoke directly with each other. Not to say they'd get on any better than we are here, but could they get on any worse? Wonder why nobody suggested that? How would it have gone down if Ms. Soeiro had invited Mrs. Trump to come to her library and respectfully express her concerns and reasons for rebuffing the Dr. Seuss books, and Melania accepted? Or flip the script and Melania invited Liz to the White House where they could discuss their differences in a respectful manner respecting each other's perspective. Crazy talk, they say. Why not, I say?
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Post by haggis on Oct 16, 2017 22:51:36 GMT -5
You may think I'm weird, but my imaginary friend disagrees. Fuck no. You're weird.
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