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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 16:30:03 GMT -5
Just cutting in to note that I feel sincerely, genuinely bad for Sean Spicer. Apparently, he is a fervent Catholic who was thrilled about meeting the pope. Trump left him out of the meeting, and I'd bet any money that was a deliberate malicious diss.
I'm an atheist, but I come from a Catholic background and know what it would mean to Spicer. The pope is just another famous guy to most of us, but to a sincere Catholic, he is much more.
The Trumps are not Catholic. I don't think Donald is religious at all (his feint at God-talk seemed to start with his campaign). If he had to leave someone out, leave out his daughter. I'm serious here. Ivanka didn't need this. I doubt it meant anything near what it would have meant to Spicer
Lord knows Spicey has tried to do his best for Trump, and it can't have been easy. Trump should have let him meet the pope.
(I know this will sound weird, but while I do think Spicer has frequently been ridiculous and deserved the mockery he gets, I also have sympathy for him. I think Conway enjoys spinning to cover indefensible stuff. But I get the impression Spicey doesn't, and his silly-looking bursts of temper, etc. are evidence of it. It might actually be a relief to him to get canned. Maybe I'm reading him wrong, I don't know. But for whatever reason, I loathe Conway and have some sympathy with Spicey. I said this before in another thread -- in a normal administration, I think he'd be a lot better. I can't imagine having his job. I'd have quit the first day.)
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Post by Christine on May 25, 2017 16:43:38 GMT -5
I feel sorry for him too, I think your take on him is accurate.
I also don't think it's weird at all, but you probably shouldn't rely on that.
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Post by Amadan on May 25, 2017 16:59:38 GMT -5
I understand that symbolic statements and gestures matter to some people. I just disagree that this one should matter. I've been thinking about this a lot actually, trying to figure out why it's all so eye-rolling for me personally. It might have to do with being raised with a lot of symbolic stuff that I later came to see as bullshit. Additionally, I don't think it's the U.S. president's job to denounce monarchies. I think they should denounce mistreatment of citizens and promote civil rights (as Obama did), but a monarchy is not, in and of itself, representative of mistreatment. As far as looking foolish, this is only the case if you buy into the belief that U.S. presidents must do X and not do Y, because symbolism. Or care too much about what other people think. He didn't look foolish to me. And honest to dog, if Trump had done the same, I'd say the same. No one said the President's job is to denounce monarchies. That would make our "special relationship" with Britain awkward. I do buy into the belief that Presidents should follow protocols and be mindful of optics, and care about symbolism.
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Post by Christine on May 25, 2017 17:19:02 GMT -5
I was responding to this (my bold): And on some level, it probably did feed the Saudis' unearned sense of entitlement to deference, whereas a President who declined to show such deference would have been making a firmer statement as to where we stood, both relative to Saudi Arabia and to the whole idea of monarchies. And, Britain isn't really a monarchy, as far as I understand.
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Post by robeiae on May 25, 2017 17:26:52 GMT -5
Sure, two mistakes. He's allowed that as well. As I said, I agree with Cass that these things were blown way out of proportion. But part of the reason for that was absolute defense of Obama's actions in this regard. Some could not allow--still can not allow--that maybe these were mistakes.
But then, that's become pretty much par for the course for sycophants on both sides of the political spectrum: never admit a mistake, no matter what.
I don't give Hillary Clinton much credit for, well, anything, but she did at least allow that having a private server was a mistake. That's something, I guess.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 17:47:36 GMT -5
Oh, god. Please, please tell me Trump didn't really say the Germans were "very bad" or "evil."
Trump allegedly said:
Please tell me that it's all a mistake.
Also, rumor has it Trump owns a German car...
ETA:
oh, god. it looks like he really truly did say that, and publicly. It was in Spiegel. It's all over twitter, from reputable sources.
Jesus, will someday tell this goddamn fool which countries are our allies, and which our enemies? That trade is not in itself a BAD thing? (Like, really? we don't want to buy German cars?)
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Post by Christine on May 25, 2017 18:05:20 GMT -5
Sure, two mistakes. He's allowed that as well. As I said, I agree with Cass that these things were blown way out of proportion. But part of the reason for that was absolute defense of Obama's actions in this regard. Some could not allow--still can not allow--that maybe these were mistakes. But then, that's become pretty much par for the course for sycophants on both sides of the political spectrum: never admit a mistake, no matter what. I don't give Hillary Clinton much credit for, well, anything, but she did at least allow that having a private server was a mistake. That's something, I guess. Look, I don't want to beat it death anymore than you do. I've allowed that people believed it was inappropriate, because reasons. That's their right. I've acknowledged that it was a mistake from the standpoint that garnering negative reactions is bad for presidencies. I disagree that it was a big deal or that it "meant" anything. You guys don't seem to disagree with that (at least the second part). So I think we're close enough. BUT NOW YOU JUST HAD TO BRING UP HILLARY, YOU... YOU ... Just kiddin'
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Post by michaelw on May 25, 2017 18:06:47 GMT -5
And, Britain isn't really a monarchy, as far as I understand. They're a constitutional monarchy, no?
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Post by celawson on May 25, 2017 18:12:05 GMT -5
Oh, god. Please, please tell me Trump didn't really say the Germans were "very bad" or "evil." Trump allegedly said: Please tell me that it's all a mistake. Also, rumor has it Trump owns a German car... ETA: oh, god. it looks like he really truly did say that, and publicly. It was in der Spiegel. It's all over twitter, from reputable sources. Jesus, will someday tell this goddamn fool which countries are our allies, and which our enemies? That trade is not in itself a BAD thing? (Like, really? we don't want to buy German cars?) Well, maybe he's talking about the VW dieselgate? (I drive one that I have to trade in, so I'm not too happy about that, either.) But I am starting to suspect Trump's frontal lobe didn't fully develop.
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Post by Christine on May 25, 2017 18:12:33 GMT -5
And, Britain isn't really a monarchy, as far as I understand. They're a constitutional monarchy, no? They have elected officials too, no?
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 18:12:52 GMT -5
I really think we have much, much bigger worries now. I really do.
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Post by Christine on May 25, 2017 18:16:54 GMT -5
There's no accounting for how people cope with shit.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 18:22:48 GMT -5
Oh, god. Please, please tell me Trump didn't really say the Germans were "very bad" or "evil." Trump allegedly said: Please tell me that it's all a mistake. Also, rumor has it Trump owns a German car... ETA: oh, god. it looks like he really truly did say that, and publicly. It was in der Spiegel. It's all over twitter, from reputable sources. Jesus, will someday tell this goddamn fool which countries are our allies, and which our enemies? That trade is not in itself a BAD thing? (Like, really? we don't want to buy German cars?) Well, maybe he's talking about the VW dieselgate? (I drive one that I have to trade in, so I'm not too happy about that, either.) But I am starting to suspect Trump's frontal lobe didn't fully develop. Apparently he was talking about Germany's trade surplus, not faulty cars. The frontal lobe theory may be correct. Reports are that some Americans have been apologizing behind Trump's back.
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Post by Deleted on May 25, 2017 18:32:38 GMT -5
OMG. I don't know whether to laugh or cry. Joe Scarsborough (of Morning Joe) retweeted the story, noting that Germany was one of our most valued allies and trade partners. A Trump supporter tweeted back:
yeah. A few things have happened since 1945...
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Post by michaelw on May 25, 2017 18:33:50 GMT -5
They're a constitutional monarchy, no? They have elected officials too, no? Sure, but that's not inconsistent with a constitutional monarchy. It's not even inconsistent with an absolute monarchy, either.
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