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Post by robeiae on Jan 15, 2019 13:58:35 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 16:21:24 GMT -5
I'm not gonna knock this. A lot of these people are in dire straits. Missing even one paycheck puts them in a terrible position. Some families have no money coming in, if there is only one earner or if both earners are working for small paychecks in the fed government.
I have friends working in the federal government who are terrified this shutdown will drag on for months. A friend of mine in the US attorney's office still has to work, just with no paycheck, and is not permitted to take sick or vacation leave. Her husband got laid off a bit ago. They're already in a hole, and scared stiff.
What are these people supposed to do? Some are selling belongings. Maybe that carries you for a week or two. But what happens after that? What if you have medical bills? tuition bills? mortgage payments? And you still have to eat.
Congress is still getting paid, of course. And very few of them understand what it's like to exist paycheck to paycheck, where missing even one is a disaster. I DO know what that's like. And I give my blessing to the "professional panhandling" until such time as our federal government stops being so fucked up. IMO, the government shouldn't be able to shut down. As far as I know, we are the only country with this idiocy.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 15, 2019 16:30:05 GMT -5
By the way, depending on where you live and what your expenses are, 14k isn't that much. In NYC, a one bedroom apt is going to run you 300O-3500 a month -- that's just rent. If you have a bigger apartment, are supporting a family, have medical bills, student loan payments, tuition bills, etc., etc...maybe that will last two months. Maybe.
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Post by Don on Jan 16, 2019 5:45:03 GMT -5
"Since I can no longer coerce you to pay for my services that you never asked for, I'm reduced to begging."
Color me heartless.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 9:21:56 GMT -5
I think the coercion is pretty much going the other way -- Trump is designating more and more federal jobs "essential" so that the workers are forced, like my friend, to work without pay. Yes, I know what you meant. You meant that we shouldn't have a government at all, and that therefore all employees of the federal government, high and low, by their act of taking a job under the umbrella of the federal government, are "coercing" the rest of us to pay for their work. I'll leave it to others to bring up, e.g., roads, mail, air traffic controllers etc. and argue about privatizing them, etc. What I'm going to bring up is my friend's job, because I'm actually quite curious to know how you think her job should be handled in a government-less world. She's a federal prosecutor, meaning (obviously, I hope) that she prosecutes federal crimes on behalf of the United States government. Among other things, her office has prosecuted Mafia killers and they're going after Donald Trump's financial crimes. Such crimes are not prosecuted by private citizens. I think markesq would back me up that it's really not feasible to have them prosecuted by private citizens. For one thing, not all of them would involve money damages to plaintiffs, so why would a private citizen go to the yuuuge expense? Then there's the issue of who would hear and try the crimes without a federal government and federal judges. There's the issue of who would set up the codes etc. under which they'd be prosecuted. Keep in mind that the crimes prosecuted by federal courts by their nature involve matters that are not simply local -- they must involve either an issue that crosses state lines or else involve a federal question. Who would try them and where? How would that be determined? What if a case has an equal nexis between three states and your privately-paid judges in all three states want to try it? What if none of them want to try it? What if no private citizens want to prosecute a mafia killer? What if they do, but no privately-paid judge wants to hear the case? FYI, prosecutors and judges sometimes get death threats. And fyi, they don't make the big bucks. They do it because it is their job. I can't imagine how we could feasibly privatize prosecuting these crimes. The results would be chaotic and incoherent at best, and most likely the perps would simply be permitted to continue unchecked. Would you advocate that we simply stop prosecuting federal crimes? If not, how do you suggest we privatize it? Serious question. As a lawyer, I literally cannot imagine how this would work.
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Post by mikey on Jan 16, 2019 9:36:44 GMT -5
The way I understand the situation is that all the government employees will still get paid, it's just a matter of when that pay comes in. If that is in fact the case, a few short term no interest loans ought to fix it up okay. Kinda like normal people do in temporary short-fall situations.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 16, 2019 9:39:13 GMT -5
I'm not gonna knock this. A lot of these people are in dire straits. Missing even one paycheck puts them in a terrible position. Some families have no money coming in, if there is only one earner or if both earners are working for small paychecks in the fed government. I have friends working in the federal government who are terrified this shutdown will drag on for months. A friend of mine in the US attorney's office still has to work, just with no paycheck, and is not permitted to take sick or vacation leave. Her husband got laid off a bit ago. They're already in a hole, and scared stiff. What are these people supposed to do? Some are selling belongings. Maybe that carries you for a week or two. But what happens after that? What if you have medical bills? tuition bills? mortgage payments? And you still have to eat. Congress is still getting paid, of course. And very few of them understand what it's like to exist paycheck to paycheck, where missing even one is a disaster. I DO know what that's like. And I give my blessing to the "professional panhandling" until such time as our federal government stops being so fucked up. IMO, the government shouldn't be able to shut down. As far as I know, we are the only country with this idiocy. Federal workers are hardly some unique group, when it comes to struggling. A lot more people who are not government employees were in dire straits long before the shutdown, will still be in dire straits after the shutdown is over. And the shutdown has been going on for less than a month. If one needs to turn to begging to get by in that short time frame, one has some serious issues, imo. What are people supposed to do? What most everyone else does who doesn't turn to panhandling: rely on help from friends and family, get a part time job, cut back on expenses, dip in to savings, etc. Note that unlike many others who go through temporary tough times, these federal workers are still getting healthcare coverage. And many are eligible to collect unemployment, though they may have to pay those monies back if they end up receiving back pay. Speaking of which, how many of those GoFundMe accounts will refund the money they collect if--or more accurately when--they go back to work and get a check for their back pay. And again, it's been 25 days. As to Congress, I personally think it's bullshit that they still get paid during these dumbass shutdowns.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 9:47:08 GMT -5
Yes, people get laid off and go through hard times.
Here, however, many of these federal employees are forced to continue working for no pay, with no end in sight. They haven't been laid off. They're not getting unemployment or benefits or welfare or food stamps. They really aren't free to go looking for a new job and they aren't free to do other work meanwhile, even if they can find it (my friend is working 50 hours a week for free right now). They might eventually get their back pay (although I understand that they might not...), but meanwhile, they've got a real fucking problem, like staying alive. If this goes on for weeks, people could be homeless. They aren't going to be able to buy food, pay insurance, pay for medical care...
If you don't want to contribute to the Gofundme accounts, that's totally fine. But if others do, what's your problem? If the people are being dishonest and lying about their situation, okay. Bad. Prosecute. If they're not, and people want to help...what's the issue?
Am curious -- do you know anyone in this position and have you spoken with them about it? I do and have. They're in a bad spot, especially if this drags on -- and it's looking like it might.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 16, 2019 9:59:47 GMT -5
The issue is the mindset, the idea that begging for money on the internet is being treated as a completely appropriate choice, that--somehow--the people who do this are justified in doing so and we should respect them, simply because they have a sob story, government shutdown or anything else.
And the issue is also the company running all of this--GoFundMe--that is professionalizing panhandling and making a huge profit from it, to boot.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 10:05:48 GMT -5
Here's a fun exercise for you and for everyone.
Let's pretend you have a job. You work paycheck to paycheck, and are the sole provider for your family, or have a spouse who also works for that same employer -- that employer is your sole source of income. You do not have savings, because you don't earn all that much and need it all to live. You do not have wealthy family members and friends to tide you over financially.
Your employer says "okay! I'm going to stop paying you for...oh, I don't know how long. We'll see. Maybe days, maybe months. But your job is essential and you still have to come to work. Oh, and by the way, you aren't eligible for unemployment or food stamps or welfare or any kind of benefits at all. Maybe eventually you'll get back pay. LOL! Meanwhile, do whatever! But keep coming into work!"
And your rent/mortgage bills, utility bills, medical bills, loan bills, insurance bills etc. keep coming in. Your kids still get hungry. You still have to pay for gas in the car (oh, and make car payments) to get to work.
Please walk me through your game plan for that period. I'm serious.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 10:31:26 GMT -5
Here's a fun exercise for you and for everyone. Let's pretend you have a job. You work paycheck to paycheck, and are the sole provider for your family, or have a spouse who also works for that same employer -- that employer is your sole source of income. You do not have savings, because you don't earn all that much and need it all to live. You do not have wealthy family members and friends to tide you over financially. Your employer says "okay! I'm going to stop paying you for...oh, I don't know how long. We'll see. Maybe days, maybe months. But your job is essential and you still have to come to work. Oh, and by the way, you aren't eligible for unemployment or food stamps or welfare or any kind of benefits at all. Maybe eventually you'll get back pay. LOL! Meanwhile, do whatever! But keep coming into work!" And your rent/mortgage bills, utility bills, medical bills, loan bills, insurance bills etc. keep coming in. Your kids still get hungry. You still have to pay for gas in the car (oh, and make car payments) to get to work. Please walk me through your game plan for that period. I'm serious. As I noted above, it's possible people will NOT be compensated for their back pay. But for fun, let's assume that they will be. Eventually, whenever this ends. Meanwhile, like I said, you gotta eat and your bills keep coming in. Should your landlord be legally forced to wait for his rent payment until that backpay comes in? He's got bills, too. (What if the landlord has a bunch of federal employees in his building, btw?) Should all your debtors be forced to be understanding until whenever (if ever) your backpay comes rolling in? Should grocery stores and gas stations give out freebies for the duration? What if this goes on for a month? three months? Seriously, if you are in the position I cited in my post above, what is your game plan? Seems to me that with a gofundme, at least the charity and understanding is voluntary on the part of the givers. And it's however much they want to give. It's not a landlord forced to wait however long for thousands in rent. Is the gofund me stuff a good solution? Of course not. It's absurd, just as it is absurd that some are forced to resort to gofundme to pay medical bills. But the problem here is that it is RIDICULOUS that our government can shut down and not pay its workers -- especially when it still forces them to work. Maybe you all have some creative ideas for what these people should do while they wait to maybe get back pay (maybe). I'm all ears. If you're going to condemn the gofundmes, I'd like to hear your plan, if you're in the above situation. ETA: I agree Congress shouldn't be getting paid in this situation, in common fairness. But even if that happened, I think it might not make them rush to resolution. With the exception of a handful like AOC,* most of them are wealthy enough where missing a paycheck or six isn't a big deal. It doesn't really put heat on them -- or at least, would only put heat on people like AOC. That in turn would mean that non-wealthy folks really couldn't run for Congress. I don't think that's so great. What I think we need is a government that isn't allowed to shut down and force its employees to work without pay. As far as I know, other countries don't do it this way. *ETA: For this reason, I think it's good to get some people like AOC in Congress (taking aside whether she knows anything about economic theory). I mean nonwealthy people who understand what it is like to work paycheck to paycheck and actually feel the effect of government policies. If you're a multi-millionaire, the effects on you are comparatively small -- you pay out a bit more or less in taxes, but stuff the government does or doesn't do doesn't hurt your lifestyle. If you are a normal American, that's not true. It would be cool to have more reps who genuinely get this. It's very clear that some think that everybody has wealthy parents to bail them out, or that they can just dip into the old trust fund for cash to tide them over...
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Post by mikey on Jan 16, 2019 11:08:17 GMT -5
I find it disturbing that claiming to live pay check to pay check is a badge of honer. Whatever happened to living below you means, in order to prepare for a "rainy day"?
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 11:15:50 GMT -5
?
It's not a "badge of honor." It's a fact of life.
I personally know people (and I'm talking professional working people -- lawyers, teachers, etc.) who live very modestly and whose paychecks cover their essential bills and that's pretty much it. By the time they pay rent on their shoeboxes, utility bills, food, student loan payments and essential expenses, they don't have excess income to save. That includes a buttload of federal employees, many of whom work jobs the government deems "essential."
If you are not in that situation, congratulations. I had the impression you were from your previous comments about wanting to be able to afford a hooker and a 12-pack now and then, and not being able to do so, but whatever. Lots of people working full-time jobs ARE in that position -- I'd venture to say much (most?) of the country is in that position. How do you save if you need your entire paycheck to cover the basic bills?
Hell, there are plenty of people working more than one job who are in this position. You can't "save for a rainy day" if you have nothing left over to save.
ETA:
One of my fave NeverTrump conservatives said recently (paraphrase) that lots of Trump followers embrace the maxim "conservative policy, rules, and judgment for you; liberal policies, benefits, and forgiveness for me". I think that's dead-on. It's fine people are getting hurt -- as long as they're not you and your guys. It's fine to give out big ass gov't subsidies -- as long as they are to your guys. It's not your fault that you have no savings and need assistance -- if you are a Trump supporter. But if you're not, fuck you, your feelings, and your hungry kids. It's your fault.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 12:14:48 GMT -5
Still waiting for:
(1) outlines on what people should do if they were the federal worker in the position I outlined above (i.e., living paycheck to paycheck, no savings, no relatives who can help, no paycheck coming in for unknown period of time, bills still coming due, forced to keep working, not eligible for unemployment, etc.)
(2) Don's plan for prosecuting federal criminals if we were to eliminate the federal government employees that we are all "coerced" into paying.
ETA:
I may as well add this:
(3) an explanation on how you "save for a rainy day" when your paycheck for working full-time (or more than full-time) only just covers your essential living expenses.
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Post by mikey on Jan 16, 2019 12:19:45 GMT -5
Sigh))People choose to live pay check to pay check. Maybe have a good hard look at how both illegal and legal immigrants live for their first few years in merica. These people tend to, like rural folks, pool their resources together, so each of them can prosper. I have immigrant family members who live in two bedroom apts at a rate of 8 and 10 ( 4 adults) people to the apt. each sharing in the cost for housing and food. Point is, folks don't "have to" live pay check to pay check. I think they do it because they don't know any other way. As for me, yes, I'd still like to be able to afford a hooker now and then, along with my 12 pack of beer, but I choose to squirrel away that money for a rainy day instead, which I know will come.
Edit to add; As for Robs original point, I don't have any kind of problem with professional pan handling. Corporations have been doing it for years so why not individuals?
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