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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 12:38:42 GMT -5
FFS.
Really. You think all the people living paycheck to paycheck while working full time are illegal aliens or are squandering their money on hookers and beer. Or they choose not to work much because they are lazy.
FFS.
Whether you are being disingenuous, willfully ignorant, or are just genuinely ignorant of basic economic realities, I don't know. What I do know is that, whether it is deliberate or not, your post is disconnected from economic reality.
So. It's your view that everybody out there who isn't making enough money to save has the ability to go out there and make more? How, exactly? Is it your belief that there is an infinite number of well-paying jobs out there? And who will do the lower-paying jobs they are currently doing? If no one does them, what happens then?
Lots of people do live piled up in apartments with multiple roommates, work full-time, and still live paycheck to paycheck.
To get a better job, you need an education or training. Which means, if mommy can't pay for it, debt. That debt holds a shit-ton of people under water for decades. When I got out of law school, my monthly loan payments were over $1000. That meant I was earning a good living, but living in a cockroach infested shoebox for three years so that I could pay off my loans. I was lucky. I had good grades and test scores and got into a top law school which got me a top job. Some folks invest the same amount of money and -- uh oh, they don't get that awesome high-paying job. They're in eternal debt. I know people like this.
Sure, they don't have to acquire debt. But that means staying in the same dead end. Rinse, repeat.
Really, you think everyone can just waltz out any time and make enough money to save, and it's purely a matter of choice if you don't? Isn't it pretty to think so.
I'll agree that if you can, you should certainly save. But I recognize that not everyone has that luxury.
ETA:
Before I went to law school, I lived in a place with five other girls. I worked two to three waitressing jobs for a while, then lucked out and got a job in a law firm as a paralegal/assistant/girl friday.
Guess what? I had all those roommates because I literally couldn't make ends meet any other way. Even with them, I lived paycheck to paycheck. And I can promise you I didn't have money for hookers and beer.
That's part of why I went to law school. And it's why I had to acquire debt to do it.
If you are able to save, congrats. Whether you can afford hookers or not, you are actually better off than a lot of working Americans.
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Post by mikey on Jan 16, 2019 12:56:34 GMT -5
Wow! Elitist much Cassandra? I gave you an example of how some of my family members do things, and you come back with
Fuck you!
And my whole point is that to spend less than you bring in, not go look for more money to spend. Although, both sides of the coin work, I was addressing only one side.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 13:00:40 GMT -5
And as for Rob's "get a part-time job, borrow from family"
Really? You think it's that easy to waltz out and find a part-time job right away, let alone one that will cover the bills? And, hello, these people, lots of them ARE WORKING. FULL TIME. FOR FREE. You think there are lots of employers lined up to hire employees for evenings and weekends, startimg instantly, who might leave tomorrow?
What world do you live in?
I guess the same world where everyone has family and friends willing and able to lend them thousands to cover living expenses for an indefinite period of time.
what a pretty, pretty world.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 13:02:00 GMT -5
Wow! Elitist much Cassandra? I gave you an example of how some of my family members do things, and you come back with Fuck you! And my whole point is that to spend less than you bring in, not go look for more money to spend. Although, both sides of the coin work, I was addressing only one side. Fuck you right back with bells on. For the record, I think it's you being judgmental, and yes, elitist, about other people's circumstances. YOU are the one saying anyone who isn't saving is either choosing to do so or "just doesn't know how" to save. YOU are the one making negative assumptions about them, their characters, their habits, etc. I am the one noting that poverty and living paycheck-to-paycheck is not always -- or even usually -- a choice, and noting that I know this from first-hand and second-hand experience.
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Post by mikey on Jan 16, 2019 13:33:43 GMT -5
Wow! Elitist much Cassandra? I gave you an example of how some of my family members do things, and you come back with Fuck you! And my whole point is that to spend less than you bring in, not go look for more money to spend. Although, both sides of the coin work, I was addressing only one side. Fuck you right back with bells on. For the record, I think it's you being judgmental, and yes, elitist, about other people's circumstances. YOU are the one saying anyone who isn't saving is either choosing to do so or "just doesn't know how" to save. YOU are the one making negative assumptions about them, their characters, their habits, etc. I am the one noting that poverty and living paycheck-to-paycheck is not always -- or even usually -- a choice, and noting that I know this from first-hand and second-hand experience. IF a person is bringing in MONEY, I am saying IF they WON'T save ANY of it, they are IDIOTS. The concept is SIMPLE, but maybe not easy.
I think you are not telling the TRUTH. You elitist, have never been poor in your life. Real poor people have found ways to overcome and even thrive. YOU have no IDEA.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 13:47:07 GMT -5
Oh my fucking god.
I just finished noting that my family has no money, that I have worked three waitressing jobs at once and lived with five roommates to survive, and lived paycheck to paycheck, paid for my entire education myself via loans, and you say "you've never been poor in your life."
I could also note that all of my grandparents were immigrants -- a coal miner, a cleaning lady, and one who sold fruit on the corner -- and that I'm pretty much exactly of the stock that barely had a foothold and eventually made good. I could add that I wore hand-me-downs from one of my mom's friend's daughters until I was a teen making my own money from babysitting and eventual jobs, because while my parents eventually attended college, they did so (at state schools on loans and their own dime) while I was growing up, and hence we were totally broke for most of my childhood.
But what would be the point? I'm a lawyer now, and I live on a coast, and I lean leftish on stuff, and I think Trump is an ass, and therefore, in your eyes, I'm an elitist who just doesn't get the poor and how it's all their own fault they don't save money. It's hilarious, really -- I'm the one pointing to the fact that many live hand to mouth, have nothing to spare, and struggle to break the cycle of poverty, you pooh-pooh them and say they're just not trying hard enough -- and I'M the elitist.
You don't deserve rational argument. You really don't.
ETA:
One of us is making a lot of sweeping assumptions about people we don't know and circumstances we don't know, and making negative judgments based on those assumptions. That person ain't me.
ETA:
Let's see if I can guess what comes next:
"Oh, now you're whining about how tough you had it, boo hoo, fuck your feelings!" (When I'm not whining...)
Or maybe "You're so elitist judging people for not doing what you did -- you don't know what it's like!" (When in fact I'm not the one judging people for not doing what I did...)
Or maybe "now that you're an elite you don't sympathize with working poor people!" (When in fact I'm the one sympathizing with working poor people...)
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Post by mikey on Jan 16, 2019 14:45:23 GMT -5
Funny that. I too live on a coast, and I too lean leftest on stuff. How funny. I don't hate Trump, I disagree with almost all his policies, but I don't hate him. Although I do have a very negative opinion of Democrats, humph, go figure.
I always thought comparing scares was a MAN thing to do, obviously I was wrong about that.
Wallow in the self pity of these government employees who, if your claim is on point that they have no option but to die from not getting a paycheck for a month if you like. That sort of behavior is not for me.
I kinda liked it when you called me "elitist".
If my mother was still alive I'd show it to her, I think she would smile over it.
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Post by robeiae on Jan 16, 2019 18:33:49 GMT -5
Here's a fun exercise for you and for everyone. Let's pretend you have a job. You work paycheck to paycheck, and are the sole provider for your family, or have a spouse who also works for that same employer -- that employer is your sole source of income. You do not have savings, because you don't earn all that much and need it all to live. You do not have wealthy family members and friends to tide you over financially. Your employer says "okay! I'm going to stop paying you for...oh, I don't know how long. We'll see. Maybe days, maybe months. But your job is essential and you still have to come to work. Oh, and by the way, you aren't eligible for unemployment or food stamps or welfare or any kind of benefits at all. Maybe eventually you'll get back pay. LOL! Meanwhile, do whatever! But keep coming into work!" And your rent/mortgage bills, utility bills, medical bills, loan bills, insurance bills etc. keep coming in. Your kids still get hungry. You still have to pay for gas in the car (oh, and make car payments) to get to work. Please walk me through your game plan for that period. I'm serious. Not all of the government employees being affected here have to keep coming to work. And not all of them are ineligible for unemployment. Depends on the State. And all of them still get their healthcare benefits. So your scenario isn't really a universal one for federal workers, in the least. Which category do the people who have started GoFundMe campaigns fall into? I'd guess there are some in all of them. As to what I would do, I suppose I would struggle. I'd cut unnecessary expenses, ask family and/or friends for help if I had to, look for part-time work, maybe even seek a short term loan. But again, if 25 days without a paycheck forced me into panhandling, I'd guess I already had a ton of issues impacting my life. And again, these federal employees who have gone without a paycheck for 25 days hardly represent the most needy people in society. But hey, some are internet-savvy, people are easily swayed by sob stories--especially when there's a political angle--and the media loves to run stories like this, so I guess panhandling is the wave of the future. Yippee.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 18:59:16 GMT -5
(1) Sure, not all of them are forced to go to work. Not all are ineligible for unemployment. Also the case that not all of them are starting go-fund-me accounts, no? (2) Whether they are forced to work or not, finding instant part-time work quickly is not particularly easy. Ever try? I've known well-qualified people spend months trying to get work. This is true even if you're willing to grab any old job. The fact is, they won't just hire a random inexperienced 40 year old as a waitress. If you want that cashier job in the drug store, who's going to get the job, the 40 year old who might be called back to his regular job tomorrow (or three months from now...) or the 18 year old kid? You say "get a part time job" like one can just walk out and pluck one off a tree. You can't, especially if you don't know how long you'll be able to work. You're likely to be over or under qualified for just about all of that work, which can add to the difficulty. Take aside that the random part-time work has to pay the bills. (3) You really seem to take for granted that everyone has family and friends in a position and willing to help financially. If you have family and friends who could lend you thousands of dollars to pay your mortgage/rent/food bills, you are fortunate. Not everyone is. (4) There are only so many unnecessary expenses you can cut. Sure, cut the cable bill. But your rent/mortgage/food/medical/gas/car payments etc. etc. -- you can't cut those. And what if you have huge whopping medical bills? What if you're caring for an elderly relative and have nursing home bills? What if your kids are in school and there are tuition bills? And you can't pay them? No one said they were the neediest people in society. That's a strawman. But they're in a shitty position, and one that (if they don't have family and friends willing to help) that makes it uniquely difficult for them to take on other work. They could quit entirely, sure. and lose whatever senority, pension whatever they might have accumulated, and be forced to go on a job search that could take a long time. But otherwise they are looking for this fabulous part-time work from a position of having no idea how long they'll be able to do it, which makes them pretty fucking unattractive to employers. Would you hire someone who might very well be quitting tomorrow, if the government opens up? I wouldn't. And the bottom line is -- these people shouldn't be in that fucking position. It's ridiculous. They are employed by our federal government. It's bullshit. I agree it's batshit that people are starting gofundme accounts because of this, but I'm not shaking my heads at those desperate people -- I'm shaking my heads at our fucking stupid government. Again, these shutdowns should not be possible. I have an issue with people who start gofundme accounts for their personal fun stuff and so forth. But here -- I'm kind of sympathetic, as long as they're honest about their situation. It's not at all difficult for me to imagine someone in a pretty bad position as the result of this -- perhaps because I personally know of some people who are mighty scared and worried. ETA: You know, I sometimes thing the word "privilege" is kind of tired and gets overused. But yanno, times like this, I think maybe not so much. Maybe this is hard to grok, but most Americans are in a position where not getting paid for 30 days would be a disaster. www.cnbc.com/2017/06/19/heres-how-many-americans-have-nothing-at-all-in-savings.htmlEven if you're in that 15 percent with $10,000, having no income for a month or two would make quite a dent. If you are among the 34% with zero, and the 35% with several hundred dollars...well, cutting cable won't help much. Sure, maybe some spend all their money on hookers and beer. But a shitload of them are struggling just to pay their living expenses. If you are not one of them, congrats. You are privileged. (And yes, I'm also privileged, but it's not hard for me to grok this at all.)
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Post by mikey on Jan 16, 2019 19:20:03 GMT -5
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 19:30:32 GMT -5
Yes. At some point. That's great. My friend's work for the last few weeks won't go uncompensated forever. Whoopee.
Meanwhile, their bills continue to come due. Should their creditors, landlords etc. be legally compelled to wait for their money and not charge interest?
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Post by mikey on Jan 16, 2019 19:41:09 GMT -5
That's why I mentioned lenders. At some point these employees need to take responsibility for wiping their own butts, er paying their bills.
On another note, I think it's unfair for the employees who don't have to work, get back pay the same as the employees who do have to work through this. Seems like the workers should get a bonus or something.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 16, 2019 20:23:03 GMT -5
This is not the workers' fault. They did not create this situation in any way. This isn't a strike where they chose to walk out. It is beyond their control, created by other dumb-asses. Why on earth should they suffer for it by, e.g., paying interest on emergency loans they take out? (Oh, that's another fun assumption -- that all of these people will be easily able to take out thousands in loans.)
(That's equally true for the ones who aren't working -- I'm certain they'd rather be working (and getting paid). How many people can afford to just have random income gaps? Who the FUCK would work for the federal government if a few times a year they might be subject to random income gaps? I've got to say, federal jobs are looking way less attractive these days.)
Let's say your boss says to you tomorrow "hey, ya know what? the board of directors can't agree on a pile of shit, so until we can, we're not going to pay your salary. Sorry 'bout that. Oh, but you still have to come into work. Btw, if you quit, you can't come back, you lose any pension, you're not getting a reference, etc. Your choice! We're not sure when we'll get all this sorted out -- might be tomorrow, might be a few months. Whatevs! LOL! Take out a loan, loser! Take some responsibility for yourself!"
No doubt you'd shrug and say "well, that's how the cookie crumbles! Time to take out a loan and wipe my own butt! And if I have to pay a shit ton of interest, LOL!"
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Post by Don on Jan 17, 2019 7:24:45 GMT -5
This is not the workers' fault. They did not create this situation in any way. This isn't a strike where they chose to walk out. It is beyond their control, created by other dumb-asses. Why on earth should they suffer for it by, e.g., paying interest on emergency loans they take out? (Oh, that's another fun assumption -- that all of these people will be easily able to take out thousands in loans.) (That's equally true for the ones who aren't working -- I'm certain they'd rather be working (and getting paid). How many people can afford to just have random income gaps? Who the FUCK would work for the federal government if a few times a year they might be subject to random income gaps? I've got to say, federal jobs are looking way less attractive these days.) Let's say your boss says to you tomorrow "hey, ya know what? the board of directors can't agree on a pile of shit, so until we can, we're not going to pay your salary. Sorry 'bout that. Oh, but you still have to come into work. Btw, if you quit, you can't come back, you lose any pension, you're not getting a reference, etc. Your choice! We're not sure when we'll get all this sorted out -- might be tomorrow, might be a few months. Whatevs! LOL! Take out a loan, loser! Take some responsibility for yourself!" No doubt you'd shrug and say "well, that's how the cookie crumbles! Time to take out a loan and wipe my own butt! And if I have to pay a shit ton of interest, LOL!" Firstly, if any private company tried what you described, there would be an army of federal agencies deciding how big the fines were going to be and who was going to jail. It's only FedGov that can get away with such threats, because, well, they own the monopoly on extortion. Secondly, if any private company had a history of trying what you describe, people would be aware of that history, and most people would't be willing to get in bed with such a screwy management, and they'd have to pay more than their competitors for labor, and offer better benefits... but since it's FedGov, of course they pay the best salaries and give the best benefits, and well, since it's the Federal Government, of course they'll be around forever, no chance of that employer going belly-up, so why not work for extortionists... As for your earlier points; here's a capsule: As for your friends in the legal profession working for FedGov, I think "justice" is a responsibility of even a minarchist state, so I feel a bit of pain for "justice" employees who are getting screwed by FedGov at this point. As for finances, I know that the only way to survive is by living a bit below one's means, and that credit is a deadly trap just when you want to use it most. I think that saving something from every paycheck is more important than anything but survival, and I have eaten beans and bread in my life to adhere to that practice. I chose not to run out and get credit cards and buy my lifestyle on credit. I know that some places are more expensive to live than others, and have chosen to live in places where I could afford to live comfortably. I chose to spend my entire adult life expanding my skillset so I was in charge of my employment, not whoever happened to be signing my paycheck. And I have always thoroughly checked out companies before I got my finances entangled in theirs. While luck plays a part, it's really about making some terribly hard choices, and following through. I call that "Adulting." It's a once-common practice, having fallen out of favor in the last few decades.
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Post by Deleted on Jan 17, 2019 9:25:59 GMT -5
It's lovely that some of you have been fortunate enough to take for granted that it's always possible to put a bit away, if you're just willing to tighten the old belt. My own view is that you live on Privilege Ranch and never venture beyond the gates. Food for thought: A friend in NYC, a guy I know from my gym,* makes about 50K a year. He has a 12-year-old son. He lives paycheck to paycheck. 50K probably sounds like a decent-enough living to many of you living somewhere else. And hey, lots of people make less, including here. But I'll put him forward as a deadbeat person who is living above the poverty level yet still has no savings, so we can show just how easy it is for him to save. First, let's plug him into a New York paycheck calculator. smartasset.com/taxes/new-york-paycheck-calculator#SHAU6bovX3 After taxes, his paycheck comes to $1426 per two week pay period. That's just taxes I've taken out. Not health insurance. And no, nothing is taken out for his non-existent 401K! His one-room (NOT one bedroom -- one ROOM studio apartment, big enough for a single bed and a couch they sleep on, but not much else) in a crap neighborhood runs him $1600 a month. That's tres cheap in NYC. He and his 12-year-old son live in that one small room, which is bedroom, living room, and kitchen all in one. So, after you deduct that from his typical after-tax monthly income of $2852, he has $1252 left. On top of that, he pays a phone bill and utilities. Let's call that $150 together, though I'm quite sure it comes to more than that. That's not including internet -- let's assume he doesn't use it. They only use public transport. That's $116 a month each for a monthly metrocard for him and his son so they can get to work and school. He has $870 a month left. I'd estimate that food costs are about 25-30% higher here than in much of the country (and no, I'm not talking restaurants). I'm always amazed when I go visit family and check out prices in supermarkets there. Even assuming they cook everything they eat from scratch and eat a lot of beans, I think they'd be hard-pressed to get their combined grocery bill under $500 a month in NYC. Before you scoff, come live here for a bit. But we'll also figure that includes all toiletries and household items they need. That leaves them $370 a month to cover clothing, school supplies, entertainment, any medical expenses that might crop up, and everything else, for a man and a growing kid. I guess they're fine and have plenty left over to sock away in the ol' piggy bank, if you assume their clothes never wear out, they never need new furniture, they never get sick, never need their teeth cleaned or need fillings or need their haircut, the kid never needs braces, etc. etc., and nothing ever breaks, and don't spend money on anything silly like medical insurance. His family (poorer than he is) lives in Puerto Rico, but of course we'll assume he never sees them and never sends them money or gifts. But the fact is -- they WILL need clothing, shoes, haircuts. Expenses WILL crop up. Things do break and wear out. Kids in school need stuff. The guy needs to be reasonably kempt for work. We can assume they never go out of town to visit family or buy anyone a Christmas gift or ever spend any money to have fun, but there are still some expenses you can't avoid. But of course, I have to admit he'll also have two "three-paycheck months" a year, in each of which he'll get an extra $1252. (If you don't know about the excitement of three-paycheck months, you have never lived paycheck to paycheck.) So really, if you factor those in, over the course of the year he actually has a palatial $568.66 per month to spend on clothing etc. etc. etc. Whooppeeee! Oh, wait. I forgot. He has student loan payments. Whomp, whomp. (If memory serves, they were something like $250 month, but I admit I'm going on memory there -- we sat down at the time to break down how he might pay a tax bill to the IRS on some of his moonlighting income. I'm confident on the rent and income.) Of course, there are tons of people far worse off than my friend and his kid. The delivery guy who brings me food -- he doesn't make 50K a year, I'm sure, and he might have more than one kid. (According to Wikipedia, the median personal income in the U.S. in 2016 was $31,099. So yeah, lots of people make less than he does, though to be fair, many of them likely live in cheaper places (though also to be fair, many of them likely have larger households to provide for). But just to say, my friend here is an example of a person I know who is well above the federal poverty line, not living in a palace spending money on hookers and beer, yet living paycheck to paycheck.) I'd love to present you all with a pile of other people's budgets and expenses where they live, and have you do some belt-tightening for them. Because belt-tightening is good and easy to do! What's wrong with these losers? Of course, I'm pretty sure what I'd get is a vague wave of the hand and talk about beans and wiping your own ass. ETA: Oh, by the way -- before any of you say "AHA! He's paying for the gym! There's an expense he could cut!" Actually, no. He moonlights there as a trainer to bring in enough money to make ends meet. I've worked with him in that capacity -- that's how we became friends. I know how much he makes and what he pays in rent because he ran into a spot of trouble with his tax return. (Why is it the IRS so often seems more interested in chasing down people barely making ends meet than the Donald Trump's of the world? Perhaps because they can't afford accountants to help them?) He asked my advice, and though I'm not a tax attorney, in the process of trying to get him some advice from more knowledgable contacts, I found out what he made, etc. I've been to the wee apartment. I've taken his kid out for boondoggles now and then, especially when he was smaller. As the kid gets bigger, an outing with Aunt Cass becomes less attractive! ETA: To note, plenty of professional jobs requiring education pay in the neighborhood of what my friend makes. E.g., starting school teacher salaries in NYC in 2018 were $54K. That's a necessary job that requires advanced education (which generally means loans). Legal aid attorney salaries start at $53,000. But hey, we don't need teachers and poor people don't need legal help in NYC, right? So no one should be doing those jobs. No one should be cleaning office buildings or delivering food or bussing restaurant tables or working as a cashier at a grocery store, either. Deadbeats, one and all!
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